From Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org Thu Apr 22 18:49:19 2004 From: Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org (E. Hietbrink) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:16 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] Message-ID: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, and would like to know how to proceed. Advise please. asap. Greetx, Erik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:40:34 -0400 Size: 6067 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20040423/b71d333a/Netreklicensinginformation.mht -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From keyos at keyos.org Thu Apr 22 19:00:38 2004 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:16 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: My code part is very simple and I beleive it is similar for other open source clients: do whatever you want, don't relicense under GPL or LGPL. If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key and distribute it among their customers it is ok with me. Stas. On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, E. Hietbrink wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:49:19 +0200 > From: E. Hietbrink > To: Joe Evango , Stas Pirogov , > Dave Ahn , "Sven Neuhaus (Courier)" , > vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org, vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org > Cc: Joe Evango > Subject: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] > > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:40:34 -0400 Size: 6067 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20040423/ef5a9374/Netreklicensinginformation.mht -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From ahn at orion.netrek.org Thu Apr 22 22:26:05 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:16 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040423032605.GA32247@orion.netrek.org> Netrek software is distributed under several different licenses, some that may even be in conflict with one another. Unfortunately, past attempts to resolve this issue were in vain due to the fact that it was impossible to contact all significant contributors to rerelease their works under a formal license. Although the consensus is that Netrek software license is more BSD-ish than GPL-ish, there is still disagreement about whether it may be distributed for-profit. Also, compiled Netrek binaries fall under U.S. export control regulations covering cryptography. All binary software distributed under the netrek.org umbrella are exempted under these regulations because I have secured that exemption on behalf of the netrek community. If Alex redistributes Netrek binary software containing encryption, then he or his company may need to obtain permission from U.S. Bureau of Industry and Security like we did. A clearer understanding of Alex's purpose and motivation may help. But the bottom line is that the netrek community does not have collective authority to grant a special license or collect any fees, so it may be best to simply quote the Netrek license to him in response, notify him of the cryptographic nature of Netrek software, request (but not require) reasonable publicity for Netrek (pointer to web page, etc), and leave it at that. On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 01:49:19AM +0200, E. Hietbrink wrote: > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik > Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information > To: "E. Hietbrink" > From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com > X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MAILHUB2/OMG(Release 6.5|September 26, 2003) at 04/22/2004 > 05:40:37 PM > X-O-Virus-Status: No > X-O-URL-Status: Not Scanned > X-O-CSpam-Status: Not Scanned > X-O-Spam-Status: Not scanned > X-O-Image-Status: Not Scanned > X-SpheriQ-Ver: 1.3.4 > X-MDRcpt-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-Rcpt-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-MDRemoteIP: 213.239.192.3 > X-Return-Path: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com > X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on smtp > X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=7.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no > version=2.63 > X-Spam-Level: > X-Spam-Processed: smtp.pn.nl, Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:55 +0200 > X-MDAV-Processed: smtp.pn.nl, Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:55 +0200 > > > > > > Hi Erik , > > Thanks for getting back to me on this. Greatly appreciated. > > We are only planning on distributing your game on a USB (Universal Serial > Bus) keychain that IBM customers can load onto their computers. > > We are not asking for special packaging. If you still want to charge a fee > for us distributing this, please let me know as soon as possible. > > > Thanks, > Alex > 212 237 4315 > > Alexander Prather > Project Manager > OgilvyInteractive, New York > Office: +1-212-237 4315 > Fax: +1-212-237 5640 > E-mail: alexander.prather@ogilvy.com > > > > > "E. Hietbrink" > trek.org> cc: > Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information > 04/21/2004 05:23 > PM > > > > > > Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I am contacting you in regards to licensing information for Netrek. Can > you > > please send me general information on costs? Or send me a link or contact > > information. > > > > We would like to put your game on a USB for IBM laptop customers. > > > > Thank you, > > Alex > > Hello Alexander, > > Sorry for responding this late, but I was unavailable. Regarding your > request, > I can inform you the game of Netrek is available free of charge. However if > you require special packaging we can help you arange it in exchange for a > symbolic donation to the cause ;-) See http://www.netrek.org/ for more > information. > > Could you perhaps provide us with some more details about your request? > Exactly what did you mean by USB? > > Looking forward to your response. > > Regards, > Erik Hietbrink > (Shadow.Hunter@netrek.org) > > > > > > > > Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to email or messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the Ogilvy Group shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From ahn at orion.netrek.org Thu Apr 22 22:31:36 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:16 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 03:00:38AM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > My code part is very simple and I beleive > it is similar for other open source clients: > do whatever you want, don't relicense under > GPL or LGPL. > If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key > and distribute it among their customers it > is ok with me. You can put these restrictions only on code that you wrote yourself, not on the entire netrek software to which you have contributed only a portion of code. This is a serious problem with Netrek software, but practically it is a non-issue since nobody has the means and/or the will to enforce any license violations. _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From keyos at keyos.org Fri Apr 23 05:43:30 2004 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:17 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Dave Ahn wrote: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 03:00:38AM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > > My code part is very simple and I beleive > > it is similar for other open source clients: > > do whatever you want, don't relicense under > > GPL or LGPL. > > > If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key > > and distribute it among their customers it > > is ok with me. > > You can put these restrictions only on code that you wrote yourself, not > on the entire netrek software to which you have contributed only a > portion of code. This is a serious problem with Netrek software, but > practically it is a non-issue since nobody has the means and/or the will > to enforce any license violations. > Dave, that is what I mentioned from the start. However the license agreement for NetrekXPMod source is kinda inherited by the source code writers from COW to NetrekXP Mod, so the source code copyright is pretty same for all coders that touched it (at least for all that are mentioned in copyright.txt in distribution). And of course we are talking about distribution of code without RSA key, because as far as I know nobody will giveup his RSA key. Now, could you expand a little bit about permission you received from US Bureau of Industry and Security ? I'm actually interested in history and I beleive most of developers would like to hear about that. Stas. _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From sn at heise.de Fri Apr 23 04:15:48 2004 From: sn at heise.de (Sven Neuhaus) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:17 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <13140000.1082711748@[10.10.11.126]> Yo Erik, Netrek was written by dozens of people. You'd have to get written agreements from everyone involved to license it. Since redistribution is allowed free of charge, they can just go ahead anyway. -Sven --On 04/23/04 01:49:19 +0200 E. Hietbrink wrote: > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu Sun Apr 25 15:12:01 2004 From: habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu (Alec T. Habig) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:17 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040425201201.GB25497@neutrino.d.umn.edu> Actually, wasn't there some change in the status of RSA about a year ago which means that RSA doesn't have that restriction anymore? Or was that just a patent expiring not a munitions law change? Alec -- Alec Habig, University of Minnesota Duluth Physics Dept. habig@neutrino.d.umn.edu http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/ _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From ahn at orion.netrek.org Fri Apr 30 10:59:03 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:17 2005 Subject: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040430155903.GA30956@orion.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 01:43:30PM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > > However the license agreement for NetrekXPMod source > is kinda inherited by the source code writers from COW > to NetrekXP Mod, so the source code copyright is pretty same for > all coders that touched it (at least for all that are > mentioned in copyright.txt in distribution). Not true. The original source code license does not require future contributions to have the same license. It's a legal mess, but again, irrelevant from a practical perspective. > And of course we are talking about distribution of > code without RSA key, because as far as I know > nobody will giveup his RSA key. This is another gray area. All the source code to generate a binary distribution is there (you can create your own RSA key), but the true original source code for a generated binary is not fully available since the key is not distributed. This is another reason why Netrek source code cannot released under a GPL even if we had the authority to. > Now, could you expand a little bit about permission > you received from US Bureau of Industry and Security ? > I'm actually interested in history and I beleive most > of developers would like to hear about that. If you search google's archive of rec.games.netrek for RES-RSA posts made by me and others, some old articles should show up that explains the situation. The brief summary is this: Prior to 2000, the US Bureau of Export Administration (BXA) classified high grade encryption software as a munition, which meant that such software basically could not be exported outside of the US under most circumstances. Furthermore, RSA Labs owned exclusive patent rights to the RSA encryption algorithm in the US at that time. Fortunately, RSA Labs allowed for royalty-free use of RSA for certain non-commercial use provided that such permission was requested and granted. Ray Jones (and possibly others) originally secured that permission from RSA Labs, and when I took over RES-RSA I reacquired permission from RSA Labs again since I substantially rewrote the code. Because of the BXA regulations, however, RES-RSA could not be distributed outside of the US. So there was a European implementation of RES-RSA that was distributed exclusively outside of the US, and the code was kept in sync. I heard that the Euro version of RES-RSA was based on an illegal export of an early version of US RES-RSA, but that may or may not be factual. In 1/2000, BXA changed the regulations to allow unrestricted exports of cryptographic software under their "open source" exception clause. When this happened, I registered RES-RSA and all netrek software that uses RES-RSA with BXA to qualify for this exception. Only software distributed under netrek.org and sourceforge.net qualify for this exception; any mirrors or copies hosted at other locations may or may not qualify (but they should as long as they are exact copies). Later in 2000, RSA Lab's patent on RSA expired. This was irrelevant for Netrek since we had acquired permission to use RSA inside the US and the patent was not valid outside of the US. Sometime in the last few years, BXA got renamed to Bureau of Industry and Security. Dave _______________________________________________ vanilla-clients mailing list vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-clients From larry.coates at rtg-usa.com Mon Apr 5 07:07:42 2004 From: larry.coates at rtg-usa.com (Larry Coates) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: Resources for work in the US! Message-ID: <00c901c41b06$994d7300$6401a8c0@CPQ49314066312> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org Wed Apr 7 17:10:58 2004 From: Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org (E. Hietbrink) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Observer observations... Message-ID: <40747C72.6090704@netrek.org> Hi ppl. Just some observations I did as observer which I consider to be bugs. Someone write em down on the to-do list? (wherever it is??) 1) If you are observing a friendly player who is t-warping, you can lock on to other players/planets, but will not swap to their viewpoint. Only when twarping is over, you can swap again. 2) You can always lock onto an independent ship (Iggy) (->planets too?) but after doing that you cannot revert to observing your own team anymore. Bummer ;-( Greetx, Erik _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From vanilla-devel at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 7 18:50:01 2004 From: vanilla-devel at us.netrek.org (Vanilla CVS Development) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] CVS update: Vanilla Message-ID: <200404072350.i37No1120867@swashbuckler.real-time.com> Date: Wednesday April 7, 2004 @ 18:50 Author: cameron Update of /home/netrek/cvsroot/Vanilla In directory swashbuckler.real-time.com:/var/tmp/cvs-serv20862 Modified Files: PROJECTS Log Message: **************************************** Index: Vanilla/PROJECTS diff -u Vanilla/PROJECTS:1.99 Vanilla/PROJECTS:1.100 --- Vanilla/PROJECTS:1.99 Wed May 14 17:52:38 2003 +++ Vanilla/PROJECTS Wed Apr 7 18:50:00 2004 @@ -1,7 +1,17 @@ -$Id: PROJECTS,v 1.99 2003/05/14 22:52:38 cameron Exp $ +$Id: PROJECTS,v 1.100 2004/04/07 23:50:00 cameron Exp $ List of things to do in the future + + - If you are observing a friendly player who is t-warping, you + can lock on to other players/planets, but will not swap to + their viewpoint. Only when twarping is over, you can swap + again [Shadow.Hunter@netrek.org] + + - You can always lock onto an independent ship (Iggy) + (->planets too?) but after doing that you cannot revert to + observing your own team anymore. Bummer ;-( + [Shadow.Hunter@netrek.org] - tools/update.c sa_sigaction not present on NetBSD. [Hietbrink] _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 7 17:51:39 2004 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Observer observations... In-Reply-To: <40747C72.6090704@netrek.org> References: <40747C72.6090704@netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040407225139.GA18800@us.netrek.org> E. Hietbrink wrote: > Just some observations I did as observer which I consider to be bugs. > Someone write em down on the to-do list? (wherever it is??) Done. PROJECTS in CVS is where the list is. Committed your text. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org Fri Apr 9 07:26:45 2004 From: Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org (E. Hietbrink) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] More bug reports... Message-ID: <40769685.4060600@netrek.org> Well, just found another few. Extremely minor importance. In server toolset. Probably very easy to fix. But i'm just reporting them now ;-) 1) If you "xtkill so" while he is flying warp 4, he ends up with a warp 4 starbase. Its funny, but probably not meant ;-) 2) If you "xtkill so", he gets a starbase with docking turned off. The tool should also turn docking on imvho. Greetx, Erik PS. I hope this mail comes through, cause we cluepickup subscribe email address and subscription web interface are not working... _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From vanillatrek at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 16:05:40 2004 From: vanillatrek at yahoo.com (Zach) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] q32 code problems? In-Reply-To: <20040323232039.GA12726@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040419210540.96998.qmail@web21113.mail.yahoo.com> The new queue code seems to be causing lots of problems. Have you guys read this recent RGN thread: http://tinyurl.com/25hyx Is someone working on resolving these problems? Perhaps go back to old queue code until this is fixed as it may scare off the influx of newbies. Zach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Apr 19 18:59:49 2004 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] q32 code problems? In-Reply-To: <20040419210540.96998.qmail@web21113.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040323232039.GA12726@us.netrek.org> <20040419210540.96998.qmail@web21113.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040419235949.GA20791@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Apr 19, 2004 at 02:05:40PM -0700, Zach wrote: > The new queue code seems to be causing lots of problems. > Have you guys read this recent RGN thread: > http://tinyurl.com/25hyx I have seen it now. None of the problems mentioned are unexpected, and the main problem is separating out the difference between symptom and cause. See my reply posting on the thread before you reply. > Is someone working on resolving these problems? I have just worked momentarily on helping to resolve the problems, but as far as I am concerned, the q32 code is working fine, but the slot freeing code after ghostbust might not be working. I need to gather more information to determine the cause of that, and whether it is significant. > Perhaps go back to old queue code until this is fixed as it may scare > off the influx of newbies. No. Not without clear proof of a scare. Newbies learn quick. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org Thu Apr 22 18:49:19 2004 From: Shadow.Hunter at netrek.org (E. Hietbrink) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:50:59 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] Message-ID: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, and would like to know how to proceed. Advise please. asap. Greetx, Erik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:40:34 -0400 Size: 6067 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20040423/b71d333a/Netreklicensinginformation-0001.mht -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From keyos at keyos.org Thu Apr 22 19:00:38 2004 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: My code part is very simple and I beleive it is similar for other open source clients: do whatever you want, don't relicense under GPL or LGPL. If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key and distribute it among their customers it is ok with me. Stas. On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, E. Hietbrink wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:49:19 +0200 > From: E. Hietbrink > To: Joe Evango , Stas Pirogov , > Dave Ahn , "Sven Neuhaus (Courier)" , > vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org, vanilla-clients@us.netrek.org > Cc: Joe Evango > Subject: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] > > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:40:34 -0400 Size: 6067 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20040423/ef5a9374/Netreklicensinginformation-0001.mht -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From ahn at orion.netrek.org Thu Apr 22 22:26:05 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040423032605.GA32247@orion.netrek.org> Netrek software is distributed under several different licenses, some that may even be in conflict with one another. Unfortunately, past attempts to resolve this issue were in vain due to the fact that it was impossible to contact all significant contributors to rerelease their works under a formal license. Although the consensus is that Netrek software license is more BSD-ish than GPL-ish, there is still disagreement about whether it may be distributed for-profit. Also, compiled Netrek binaries fall under U.S. export control regulations covering cryptography. All binary software distributed under the netrek.org umbrella are exempted under these regulations because I have secured that exemption on behalf of the netrek community. If Alex redistributes Netrek binary software containing encryption, then he or his company may need to obtain permission from U.S. Bureau of Industry and Security like we did. A clearer understanding of Alex's purpose and motivation may help. But the bottom line is that the netrek community does not have collective authority to grant a special license or collect any fees, so it may be best to simply quote the Netrek license to him in response, notify him of the cryptographic nature of Netrek software, request (but not require) reasonable publicity for Netrek (pointer to web page, etc), and leave it at that. On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 01:49:19AM +0200, E. Hietbrink wrote: > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik > Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information > To: "E. Hietbrink" > From: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com > X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on MAILHUB2/OMG(Release 6.5|September 26, 2003) at 04/22/2004 > 05:40:37 PM > X-O-Virus-Status: No > X-O-URL-Status: Not Scanned > X-O-CSpam-Status: Not Scanned > X-O-Spam-Status: Not scanned > X-O-Image-Status: Not Scanned > X-SpheriQ-Ver: 1.3.4 > X-MDRcpt-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-Rcpt-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-MDRemoteIP: 213.239.192.3 > X-Return-Path: Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com > X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ehb@publishnet.nl > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on smtp > X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=7.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no > version=2.63 > X-Spam-Level: > X-Spam-Processed: smtp.pn.nl, Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:55 +0200 > X-MDAV-Processed: smtp.pn.nl, Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:55 +0200 > > > > > > Hi Erik , > > Thanks for getting back to me on this. Greatly appreciated. > > We are only planning on distributing your game on a USB (Universal Serial > Bus) keychain that IBM customers can load onto their computers. > > We are not asking for special packaging. If you still want to charge a fee > for us distributing this, please let me know as soon as possible. > > > Thanks, > Alex > 212 237 4315 > > Alexander Prather > Project Manager > OgilvyInteractive, New York > Office: +1-212-237 4315 > Fax: +1-212-237 5640 > E-mail: alexander.prather@ogilvy.com > > > > > "E. Hietbrink" > trek.org> cc: > Subject: Re: Netrek licensing information > 04/21/2004 05:23 > PM > > > > > > Alexander.Prather@ogilvy.com wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I am contacting you in regards to licensing information for Netrek. Can > you > > please send me general information on costs? Or send me a link or contact > > information. > > > > We would like to put your game on a USB for IBM laptop customers. > > > > Thank you, > > Alex > > Hello Alexander, > > Sorry for responding this late, but I was unavailable. Regarding your > request, > I can inform you the game of Netrek is available free of charge. However if > you require special packaging we can help you arange it in exchange for a > symbolic donation to the cause ;-) See http://www.netrek.org/ for more > information. > > Could you perhaps provide us with some more details about your request? > Exactly what did you mean by USB? > > Looking forward to your response. > > Regards, > Erik Hietbrink > (Shadow.Hunter@netrek.org) > > > > > > > > Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to email or messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the Ogilvy Group shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From ahn at orion.netrek.org Thu Apr 22 22:31:36 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 03:00:38AM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > My code part is very simple and I beleive > it is similar for other open source clients: > do whatever you want, don't relicense under > GPL or LGPL. > If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key > and distribute it among their customers it > is ok with me. You can put these restrictions only on code that you wrote yourself, not on the entire netrek software to which you have contributed only a portion of code. This is a serious problem with Netrek software, but practically it is a non-issue since nobody has the means and/or the will to enforce any license violations. _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From sn at heise.de Fri Apr 23 04:15:48 2004 From: sn at heise.de (Sven Neuhaus) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> Message-ID: <13140000.1082711748@[10.10.11.126]> Yo Erik, Netrek was written by dozens of people. You'd have to get written agreements from everyone involved to license it. Since redistribution is allowed free of charge, they can just go ahead anyway. -Sven --On 04/23/04 01:49:19 +0200 E. Hietbrink wrote: > Ok, I'm a bit confused. I have no clue what this guys intent is, > but since he has responded he seems sincere. What to do? I have no clue > on whether he plans on making money off it for instance. I lack details, > and would like to know how to proceed. > > Advise please. asap. > > Greetx, Erik _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From keyos at keyos.org Fri Apr 23 05:43:30 2004 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Dave Ahn wrote: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 03:00:38AM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > > My code part is very simple and I beleive > > it is similar for other open source clients: > > do whatever you want, don't relicense under > > GPL or LGPL. > > > If they want to put binaries on disk-on-key > > and distribute it among their customers it > > is ok with me. > > You can put these restrictions only on code that you wrote yourself, not > on the entire netrek software to which you have contributed only a > portion of code. This is a serious problem with Netrek software, but > practically it is a non-issue since nobody has the means and/or the will > to enforce any license violations. > Dave, that is what I mentioned from the start. However the license agreement for NetrekXPMod source is kinda inherited by the source code writers from COW to NetrekXP Mod, so the source code copyright is pretty same for all coders that touched it (at least for all that are mentioned in copyright.txt in distribution). And of course we are talking about distribution of code without RSA key, because as far as I know nobody will giveup his RSA key. Now, could you expand a little bit about permission you received from US Bureau of Industry and Security ? I'm actually interested in history and I beleive most of developers would like to hear about that. Stas. _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu Sun Apr 25 15:12:01 2004 From: habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu (Alec T. Habig) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040425201201.GB25497@neutrino.d.umn.edu> Actually, wasn't there some change in the status of RSA about a year ago which means that RSA doesn't have that restriction anymore? Or was that just a patent expiring not a munitions law change? Alec -- Alec Habig, University of Minnesota Duluth Physics Dept. habig@neutrino.d.umn.edu http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/ _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From ahn at orion.netrek.org Fri Apr 30 10:59:03 2004 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:00 2005 Subject: [Vanilla Devel] Re: [Netrek Clients] Re: [Fwd: Re: Netrek licensing information] In-Reply-To: References: <408859FF.7030604@netrek.org> <20040423033136.GB32247@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20040430155903.GA30956@orion.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 01:43:30PM +0300, Stas Pirogov wrote: > > However the license agreement for NetrekXPMod source > is kinda inherited by the source code writers from COW > to NetrekXP Mod, so the source code copyright is pretty same for > all coders that touched it (at least for all that are > mentioned in copyright.txt in distribution). Not true. The original source code license does not require future contributions to have the same license. It's a legal mess, but again, irrelevant from a practical perspective. > And of course we are talking about distribution of > code without RSA key, because as far as I know > nobody will giveup his RSA key. This is another gray area. All the source code to generate a binary distribution is there (you can create your own RSA key), but the true original source code for a generated binary is not fully available since the key is not distributed. This is another reason why Netrek source code cannot released under a GPL even if we had the authority to. > Now, could you expand a little bit about permission > you received from US Bureau of Industry and Security ? > I'm actually interested in history and I beleive most > of developers would like to hear about that. If you search google's archive of rec.games.netrek for RES-RSA posts made by me and others, some old articles should show up that explains the situation. The brief summary is this: Prior to 2000, the US Bureau of Export Administration (BXA) classified high grade encryption software as a munition, which meant that such software basically could not be exported outside of the US under most circumstances. Furthermore, RSA Labs owned exclusive patent rights to the RSA encryption algorithm in the US at that time. Fortunately, RSA Labs allowed for royalty-free use of RSA for certain non-commercial use provided that such permission was requested and granted. Ray Jones (and possibly others) originally secured that permission from RSA Labs, and when I took over RES-RSA I reacquired permission from RSA Labs again since I substantially rewrote the code. Because of the BXA regulations, however, RES-RSA could not be distributed outside of the US. So there was a European implementation of RES-RSA that was distributed exclusively outside of the US, and the code was kept in sync. I heard that the Euro version of RES-RSA was based on an illegal export of an early version of US RES-RSA, but that may or may not be factual. In 1/2000, BXA changed the regulations to allow unrestricted exports of cryptographic software under their "open source" exception clause. When this happened, I registered RES-RSA and all netrek software that uses RES-RSA with BXA to qualify for this exception. Only software distributed under netrek.org and sourceforge.net qualify for this exception; any mirrors or copies hosted at other locations may or may not qualify (but they should as long as they are exact copies). Later in 2000, RSA Lab's patent on RSA expired. This was irrelevant for Netrek since we had acquired permission to use RSA inside the US and the patent was not valid outside of the US. Sometime in the last few years, BXA got renamed to Bureau of Industry and Security. Dave _______________________________________________ vanilla-devel mailing list vanilla-devel@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-devel From ivan at ivanvazquez.com Sat Apr 17 17:05:32 2004 From: ivan at ivanvazquez.com (Ivan Vazquez) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:54 2005 Subject: [Vanilla List] Server load average command Message-ID: <16513.43564.642000.68679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Fellow netrekers, I've frequently thought it would be useful to see the load average on the server. Perhaps someone would be interested in implementing this into the vanilla server? i.e. send yourself: "load" tx, ivan (foozle) _______________________________________________ vanilla-list mailing list vanilla-list@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-list From ant at solace.mh.se Mon Apr 19 20:00:44 2004 From: ant at solace.mh.se (Anthony Whitehead) Date: Wed Jan 12 00:51:55 2005 Subject: [Vanilla List] Server load average command In-Reply-To: <16513.43564.642000.68679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16513.43564.642000.68679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200404200300.51305.ant@solace.mh.se> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 18 April 2004 00:05, Ivan Vazquez wrote: > Fellow netrekers, > > I've frequently thought it would be useful to see the load average > on the server. Perhaps someone would be interested in implementing > this into the vanilla server? Doesn't the server send that anyway or am I thinking of the INL server? - -- /Anthony Whitehead Unix Sysadmin PGP Key: http://www.solace.mh.se/~ant/ant.pubkey - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAhHZBj8xgYhljASoRAgvkAJ9y7WxBi17NZK3jgpJ3s7gyNlQHFACfXTJQ p/WhVwiyAkoOMt4wZhDgVew= =Zt2Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ vanilla-list mailing list vanilla-list@us.netrek.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/vanilla-list