From ahn at orion.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 00:01:30 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 01:01:30 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070401050130.GA18373@orion.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 12:39:54AM -0400, Dave Ahn wrote: > > This is not how RES-RSA works. RES-RSA creates a functional For those interested, I managed to find an old discussion on RES-RSA: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.netrek/browse_thread/thread/b828afe4e189c038/893bca4061380542?lnk=st&q=RES-RSA+functional&rnum=1#893bca4061380542 From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 00:02:38 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:02:38 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 05:27:38PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > As much as I appreciate the current infra-structure, if there is > no clarification on this part, we might need others. I don't see any council or government. The infrastructure owners basically respond to noise level, kind of like a government without representation. I used to listen to the INL council, but it dried up. At the moment, I'm afraid I have to treat most of this as just noise, until it is clear there is representation. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sun Apr 1 02:31:41 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 03:31:41 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070401073141.GA22377@mark.mielke.cc> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 12:39:54AM -0400, Dave Ahn wrote: > On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 02:30:44PM -0400, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > To prove this, consider the other approach to "cracking" the RSA > > check: Extract the secret key from the public binaries. Even if the > > module link order is randomized, and the symbol information stripped, > > the client still contains the secret key, and still must access it > > when presented with the RSA check. Tracing execution of the client, or > > disassembling a stripped binary may be beyond many people. It is not > > beyond all people. The secret key widely distributed in every blessed > > Netrek client. > This is not how RES-RSA works. RES-RSA creates a functional > representation (blackbox) of the RSA algorithm specific to the client's > secret key, so it does not embed the secret key verbatim in the binary, > and the secret key is never reconstructed at runtime. I believe that > the functional representation can be reverse engineered to recover the > secret key, but this has never been mathematically proven. There are > far more effective ways to break RES-RSA than trying to recover the key > from a blessed binary. A secret key is a secret key. However encoded it is, or however black boxed it is. RES-RSA is obscure. It is not secure. Sometimes obscurity is enough. In this case, my point was, that it must be enough. It isn't possible to secure the system unless you control all points at all times. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From narcis at luky.nl Sun Apr 1 03:48:50 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:48:50 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] to spot a borg, RSA etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85ED2A52-F94B-4AA4-B22B-4C23C24872BC@luky.nl> > That's great. I'm curious as to precisely how you determined a given > player was using a borg in your judgement? he killed me? no wait, that did not require great effort :-) it is something that just struck me odd, phasers that never miss, shields raising miliseconds before torps hit, so i asked the player and he confirmed it. > On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 04:27:18PM +0200, Narcis wrote: >> I noticed continium has RSA re-enabled, [...] > > Not so. Configuration file etc/sysdef last change was on 14th March. > How are you determining that continuum has RSA enabled? I usually get a tcpwrite error right after sending a RSA response, none of the other servers do that, but in light of your post i'll dig into it, i did notice the usual "you need a spiffy new client" statement did not appear. >> but not with MacTrek keys. > > I'm happy to add these keys to continuum if someone can tell me how. > I've not made the time to understand how to have locally accepted keys > in addition to the metaserver supplied keylist. i've added them to the var/rsa-keylist and ran ./rsa_keycomp ../var/ rsa-keyfile not sure how that works with the meta server, maybe it is better to add them there. regards Chris P.S. MacTrek does not do Paradise, but does do War Declarations now From narcis at luky.nl Sun Apr 1 03:57:14 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 10:57:14 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <666D9310-FF4C-4137-A398-852D8CF3959B@luky.nl> >> (We'd need to make sure MacTrek did RCDs) 1.2 implements a hand full of macros and RCDs they seem to work, but i find RCD not so easy to debug. so it may be a bit buggy. regards Chris From regrado at web.de Sun Apr 1 09:40:23 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 16:40:23 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Sun 1.Apr'07 at 14:54:08 +1000 -= > > Wait! > > The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! > > Fix them. Well, ... I'll see what I can do with Paradise/TT when I know what Dave's plan about the repository is. I heard he's done error correction recently, but I don't know where this lastest code ended up. > > At least I remember when I saw them the 1st time: I had _no idea_ > > what ++ or "ogg" means. > > ++ means "Saw ship beam up armies". > > ogg means "Give them a new ship", or "Send them back home", but > could be localised into "Kill." I know that _now_... those were just the most prominent examples, other RCD might need rework, too. > > And the info alone doesn't help either, an additional clue as to > > what would be a good reaction would help, too! > > Yes, fix that too please. > > ++ means "Enemy ship is threatening our planets by picking up > armies, kill them, you get more credit for armies in flight." > Then a checkbox to enable abbreviated RCD output, and a > mouse-over tooltip/hint that explains what "++" and "ogg" mean. Ehh ... ooookkkk. ;) Though I wonder wether we need abbreviated RCDs. Once people understand what RCD means, they may customize it to whatever they want. I don't see the need to create an extra jargon for netrek. Some things like "ogg" have historic reasons, but for newbs (which naturally don't have that history) they mean an extra hurdle to enjoy the game. > Here's an additional suggestion ... > "F0 (Psychosis) wants to be your buddy, do you wish to add them > to your buddy list? This will let them talk without using Netrek > Code (RCD). Warning: you may be offended." I like the idea of :ita as default for all players, and then inform the player how to un-mute selected people. Is this a server- or client-side feature, or (probably both) which would be better? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Apr 1 10:57:40 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 17:57:40 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Sun 1.Apr'07 at 15:02:38 +1000 -= > At the moment, I'm afraid I have to treat most of this as just > noise, until it is clear there is representation. Then the questions are: - where from should a representation come from? - how willing are owners to sumbit their resources to decisions made by some representation, potentially against their own conviction? (if we somehow succeeded in producing a "well" accepted/ supported body among the currently active speakers/ interested but currently silent crowd). (whatever "well" "accepted/ supported" may mean?) Before we get lost in definitions and recursive meta-instances of preparation decisions, I propose a system and we adjust it until we're happy, then we ask the owners if they'll roll with it. If they do, fine, otherwise find replacement for those who revoke their resources. General idea: have some well known order of things, who's in charge. When things are clearer, hopefully decisions will be, too, and also faster to see changes faster so they can be tried out rather than be theorized about (some things work out better than feared). ---- Have a body per game-style: - Bronco, Paradise, Hockey, Chaos (== Sturgeon?), ... Each body consists of uneven members (to reduce draw decisions): - 3 or 5, depending on player base/ interest, like 3 for Paradise (if we have that many total ;) and 5 for Bronco. Have 1 (meta-)protocol for all bodies to produce decisions: - deadlines, success conditions, discussion place (mail, news, web forum). Have 1 (meta-)protocol for all bodies to replace its members: - membership period, how one / who becomes member (election polls, invitation by remaining members or installed by meta-body). When changes are agreed on, then they are incorprated in a published standard for the game type and produce new binaries immediately: - with a (perhaps new, or maybe old) blessing system either the body itself produces or delegates production of blessed binaries. - bessings are granted per type, so if a client complies with Paradise but not Bronco, it shall not be allowed to join Broncos. Maybe have the current owners act as initial meta-body to install the initial members for each body (because I can't think of a fair boot strap voting system). That is for "official netrek" servers. Every game-server admin is free to ignore the blessing procedure/ official crap as he wishes and let anyone join (as it's possible now, too), but we should have at least 1 reference "offical" server per type up. Fairness comes through support+control, which comes through understanding, which comes through access to knowledge, which must exist and be openly available to all. (sorry Trent) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From jrd at gerdesas.com Sun Apr 1 12:26:22 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:26:22 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070401172622.GC9448@mail.beanhq.com> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 04:40:23PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > I like the idea of :ita as default for all players, and then > inform the player how to un-mute selected people. > Is this a server- or client-side feature, or (probably both) which > would be better? It's a team game. Blocking team messages is good for the player and team exactly how? John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070401/f8369218/attachment.pgp From ahn at orion.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 13:05:58 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:05:58 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070401073141.GA22377@mark.mielke.cc> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> <20070401073141.GA22377@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070401180558.GA25318@orion.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 03:31:41AM -0400, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > A secret key is a secret key. However encoded it is, or however black > boxed it is. RES-RSA is obscure. It is not secure. Sometimes obscurity is > enough. In this case, my point was, that it must be enough. It isn't possible > to secure the system unless you control all points at all times. RES-RSA neither obscures nor secures. It obfuscates using a published transformation algorithm. Your original response implies that PKC is the "real problem" with the Netrek binary verification system, but I contend that that is not true. The "real problem" is the multiple vectors of attack in circumventing RES-RSA, not breaking the functional transform or reverse engineering the key. If you are claiming that the functional transform used in RES-RSA is cryptographically weak and is easily reversible, I'd like to read your analysis because I have a passing interest in cryptography. From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sun Apr 1 17:05:37 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 18:05:37 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070401180558.GA25318@orion.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> <20070401073141.GA22377@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401180558.GA25318@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070401220537.GA30005@mark.mielke.cc> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 02:05:58PM -0400, Dave Ahn wrote: > On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 03:31:41AM -0400, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > A secret key is a secret key. However encoded it is, or however black > > boxed it is. RES-RSA is obscure. It is not secure. Sometimes obscurity is > > enough. In this case, my point was, that it must be enough. It isn't possible > > to secure the system unless you control all points at all times. > RES-RSA neither obscures nor secures. It obfuscates using a published > transformation algorithm. Your original response implies that PKC is > the "real problem" with the Netrek binary verification system, but I > contend that that is not true. The "real problem" is the multiple > vectors of attack in circumventing RES-RSA, not breaking the functional > transform or reverse engineering the key. If you are claiming that the > functional transform used in RES-RSA is cryptographically weak and is > easily reversible, I'd like to read your analysis because I have a > passing interest in cryptography. Sorry - I wasn't clear. I'll take another stab at it: Public key architecture cannot solve the problem, because the secret key is freely and widely distributed to the public. The secret key may be concealed beneath a state machine, a physical black box card, random number of link order. From a design perspective, the secret key *is* included, and since the ability to use the secret key is a necessary part of the function, the ability to reproduce it is therefore also included. Public key architecture, in this case, is only better than reserved.c in that few people understand the technology. RES-RSA may be more obscure than a straight RSA implementation. Public key architecture is not providing a significant benefit over any other encryption or encoding scheme. You could have a 'functional' 3DES implementation and it would accomplish the same value. Heck - why not include a random algorithm in the software instead? Random if(), for(;;), and various arithmetic operators in a sequence. It would have the same benefit/effect. :-) The underlying point here, is that it is *not possible* to 100% guarantee that the client is legitimate unless you can control the software and hardware on the client. Sorry if this point isn't of concern to you, or if I confused the issue in any way. :-) Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 17:41:38 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:41:38 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401172622.GC9448@mail.beanhq.com> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401172622.GC9448@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070401224138.GA4164@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 12:26:22PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote: > It's a team game. Blocking team messages is good for the > player and team exactly how? Earlier in the thread, the justification is that it reduces the departure of new players by avoiding insults to them. It won't be the best for the team, or good for the experienced player, but it will be good for the newbie until they learn enough to open themselves to the raw insult message stream. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 17:42:38 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 08:42:38 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070401224238.GB4164@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 04:40:23PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > =- James Quick wrote on Sun 1.Apr'07 at 14:54:08 +1000 -= > > > > Wait! > > > The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! > > > > Fix them. > > Well, ... I'll see what I can do with Paradise/TT when I know what > Dave's plan about the repository is. [...] This isn't enough. If you've a serious suggestion about fixing things, I'd like you to be covering all of Netrek, not just a niche. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 1 18:03:22 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:03:22 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 05:57:40PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Then the questions are: > - where from should a representation come from? Earth, Netrek players. > - how willing are owners to sumbit their resources to decisions > made by some representation, potentially against their own conviction? We already do. I see it as an incremental change. At the moment the most noisy and well defined problems get solved, in the way that the noisiest and most well understood people want. After I think I've solved a problem, more noise appears. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sun Apr 1 20:25:49 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 21:25:49 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek.pulsar-zone.net messed up Message-ID: looks like 4 busted fed slots and bots on kli and rom taking all the login slots. another player on obs and i haven't been able to login there all day. tried emailing server god but all his addresses bounced :( zach From regrado at web.de Mon Apr 2 10:53:20 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:53:20 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401172622.GC9448@mail.beanhq.com> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401172622.GC9448@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070402155320.GB17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- John R. Dennison wrote on Sun 1.Apr'07 at 12:26:22 -0500 -= > It's a team game. Blocking team messages is good for the player > and team exactly how? As James explained, newbies are more threatened to leave the game by abusive people rather than failing at or missing team-speak. As mentioned, newbies should get big flashy clues that they are in abuse-protection mode and that the game relies heavily on team-talk and that they are urgently advised to get used to morons and ignore them and finally enjoy the game with the "right" people and how to enable team-talk again. (I'm sorry for the lot of "and"s) Together with the new default RCD message this could actually lead to more/ quicker team-speak usage by newbies. > "My other computer is your windows box." > Ralf Hildebrandt Good one. :) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Apr 2 10:56:21 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:56:21 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401224238.GB4164@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401224238.GB4164@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070402155621.GC17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 8:42:38 +1000 -= > On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 04:40:23PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > =- James Quick wrote on Sun 1.Apr'07 at 14:54:08 +1000 -= > > > > > > Wait! > > > > The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! > > > > > > Fix them. > > > > Well, ... I'll see what I can do with Paradise/TT when I know what > > Dave's plan about the repository is. [...] > > This isn't enough. If you've a serious suggestion about fixing things, > I'd like you to be covering all of Netrek, not just a niche. Uh ... "all of netrek" ... maybe I miss something or misunderstand you, but aren't the respective client maintainers reponsible for _their_ babies add newbie improvements? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Apr 2 11:06:13 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 18:06:13 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070402160613.GD17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 9:03:22 +1000 -= > > Then the questions are: > > - where from should a representation come from? > > Earth, Netrek players. > > > - how willing are owners to sumbit their resources to decisions > > made by some representation, potentially against their own conviction? > > We already do. I see it as an incremental change. At the moment > the most noisy and well defined problems get solved, in the way > that the noisiest and most well understood people want. After I > think I've solved a problem, more noise appears. Then I might be misunderstanding you again, this time what this "representation" is. I'd expect from such an institution to clearly define official standards and enforce them on all officially supported clients. I.e. reduce the noise by borg-resistance. If it's official, then it's not cheating, and every client is encouraged to support it and every player to use clients which support it. Where/ who is _this_ representation of netrek? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Mon Apr 2 12:23:37 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:23:37 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 20:46:21 -0400 -= > I've now started > http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas Thank you. > Zach, please please use more paragraphs in your email; those > huge blocks of text are mind-numbing to look at. ... and Zach: don't repost major parts. > { Paradise } But I think it is foolish to put any effort into it > until there are clients for something besides unix. I guess you mean primarily windows, and there you're right, such a beast would definitely help. (Paradise has run on non-unix/-windows systems, I even read about mac). > As Sturgeon demonstrated, we don't have enough players to > support more than one kind of netrek right now. I don't know Sturgeon, but let me rationalize about Paradise: - newbies want to play for fun, that's the entry-level. - when they enjoy it and need new challenges, they move to the next level: - sportslike competition, - organized games with elite players, - eventually leading to organized league games. Bronco is more like a sports game with all the high expectations towards team-awareness and team-oriented playing styles, and because of it's front-line enforced game play with little variation. You can have fun with Bronco as newbie, but I believe Paradise is more fun as entry-level, yet it still requires some structured/ team play to win (as team), just less so than with Bronco: you can have relaxed fun (by variation) but slowly learn on your own the need for team support (to cover all possible variations, you can't do all on your own ;). I can't compare with Sturgeon, since I've never been there. I know, many new players who are still around have begun with Bronco, but this is quite obvious without a Paradise server around. ;) At least for me and several others (Zach, we know about you already ;) who are stuck with Bronco now, the entry was Paradise, and still we love Bronco, too, or we wouldn't be still around. :) > And I'm not sure the newbies are even reaching a point where > Chaos or Sturgeon would make much of a difference to their > perceptions. Although wrap is kinda obvious. Well, Paradise would be _a lot_ different, and more familiar to the TV-show, if they've seen it and matters to some newbs. > In regard to semi-retired players, I think once we get the tech > pre-reqs in place and ramp up marketing, that we should make a > concerted effort to get them back, even on a "let's try to save > the game" campaign basis. I know we need clue to raise new clue, but (semi-)retired folks retired for private reasons: not because the game deteriorated, but other interests have surpassed netrek. I wouldn't put too much effort on this area, but rather let new clue develop on its own. > I think the clue games have succeeded because of scheduling; > people who want a solid game are more likely to make a set time > than to drop in. Unfortunately this will keep some interested people out who just can't make it to that time. Timezones and work suck. ;) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From karthik at karthik.com Mon Apr 2 13:53:35 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:53:35 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 Message-ID: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> Netrek.pulsar-zone.net has been broken for several days. Multiple people have emailed the admin to no avail. Currently it shows 7 players, but most of those are duplicates of the same player and there's also a wait queue, even though the game is mostly filled with bots. Since the admin does not seem to be active, I move that this server be delisted. There are other issues as well. Firstly, it's listed as a Bronco server, but it fills the game up with bots all the way to 16 players with T mode active. That is not a Bronco server in my opinion. Secondly, it runs in Chaos mode with super-SBs and GAs on some days of the week. That is a Chaos server, not a Bronco server. I communicated with the admin a couple months ago, and he declined to change the type listing from Bronco. I suggested a listing type of "O" for "Other", just as the base practice server is. (We can certainly add client support for that later; for now it'll show as O or Unknown in clients.) Finally, the server has serious lag, and I do not believe it should be listed as a public server. On top of confusing newbies with the permanent wait queue, if they do connect the lag could be very off- putting. Here's an example from a few minutes ago: 17 v3490.mpd01.yyz01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.5.74) 37.852 ms 39.077 ms 39.156 ms 18 * * * 19 38.99.136.235 (38.99.136.235) 38.359 ms 38.925 ms 40.847 ms 20 fibre1.igs.net (216.58.0.11) 39.237 ms 40.005 ms 40.601 ms 21 ns1.pulsar-zone.net (66.11.161.164) 976.298 ms 1018.486 ms 1029.951 ms From karthik at karthik.com Mon Apr 2 16:24:56 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 17:24:56 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: A well-done interactive newbie tutorial would do FAR, FAR more for the game than changing basic features that make the game slightly easier at the expense of removing key elements of skill AND strategy. Many people forget that what seems like simple skill in fact leads into strategic play. On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Rado S wrote: > The problem is not backward compatibility with old clients, > but backward compatibility with old school player types! > They don't _want_ that feeling to change they are used to, and > which requires some skill to master that info, which they as > cluebies already have while newbies don't have yet, so they can > feel better while newbies have to go through the same learning > curve of "oh so important" skill, of which they claim it > unbalances the game. D'oh. No. I don't feel "better" than newbies because I can cripple a ship properly rather than kill it. I do feel more accomplished, but when I was learning the skill I *enoyed* learning it. And I enjoy teaching skills like crippling ships to new players, and can tell that they enjoy learning such skills. And this particular SKILL is also a STRATEGY. It's strategically important to sometimes be able to fake out other players by pretending you are less crippled or have much more fuel than you actually have. And it's strategically important to hide how much damage your base has from the other team. So it does imbalance the game. I've brought this skill up in particular because showing enemy damage has been tossed around; an idea that I absolutely abhor. So why dumb down the game? It's a skill that's learned over time, and is rewarding to learn. I would think that the type of people to play an arcane game like Netrek would enjoy learning such skills. There are plenty of harder ones to learn. Learning how to dogfight well is far harder. Learning to be in the right place at the right time (without some flashy graphics pointing you in the general direction) is just as hard. Should we have all picks called ++ automatically so that the game doesn't require SC bombers to learn how to call picks? Should we light up a cloaker for a quarter-second when hit by torps to make a plock easier? That'll make it easier to learn how to plock cloakers with torps! There is much skill-assistance that I am not against. Things like det circles, which give you a general idea of how dets work, but still require skill to become more than average at. This is an example of flattening the learning curve, yet leaving it as a challenge to new players to master. Phaser max-distance circles if someone wants to add them? Fine by me. We already report phaser damage when you hit a ship. Why not change the phaser color based on how far away the enemy was, and thus how much damage you inflicted? That wouldn't be so bad, and it illustrates the point that phasers do more damage closer in These things I list about are skill-assistance. They do not remove learned higher-level skill, nor important strategy, from the game. They simply help a new player learn faster without significantly changing game play. > It's a question of preference: > a) retain requirement of past times skill as indicator of superiority > vs. > b) accelerated playing quality. > > I go for b). > Does it really matter _why_ some player does the right thing as > long as he does the right thing? > He can learn afterwards why it is right if he doesn't get it on > his own from the start. I go for both. It is quite possible to accelerate playing quality while having tried-and-tested methods of gameplay be the ultimate goal that newbies strive for. The key is to help them part of the way, such that they know what they're trying to learn, rather than being thrust into a confusing game with no real goals. All of this aside, I don't even see the point of discussing what trivial features can be changed for the worse, when that is not the problem. The problem is not that a newbie doesn't know how far to det at. The problem is not that a newbie doesn't know how damaged an enemy ship is. And the problem is not that a newbie needs big blinking ships to see which enemies carry armies. The problem is that the game is very complex, and simple things like figuring out how to send messages are far more daunting than they should be. Why don't we concentrate efforts on that instead of trying to fix what's really not broken by removing elements of strategy and skill? From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Mon Apr 2 18:05:17 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:05:17 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:23:37 +0200") References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: >> { Paradise } But I think it is foolish to put any effort into it >> until there are clients for something besides unix. > > I guess you mean primarily windows, and there you're right, > such a beast would definitely help. (Paradise has run on > non-unix/-windows systems, I even read about mac). Macs have Unix underneath things these days, which is why the TT port to OS X was possible. But... to your average mac user, it looks terrible. They are used to things that are written against the mac toolkits, not the unix toolkits, and the mac toolkits have a familiar and consistent "look and feel" which is a main reason for people buying macs in the first place. And they look a lot nicer besides. This is not to say that we wouldn't get any players, but we'd be targeting a platform that has maybe a 10% market share to start with, and many of whose players would take one look at the client and bail. In the absence of a windows client, I can't see focusing effort there; it's fighting with two hands tied behind our backs. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Mon Apr 2 18:34:43 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:34:43 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:23:37 +0200") References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0q4pnycpv0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: >> In regard to semi-retired players, I think once we get the tech >> pre-reqs in place and ramp up marketing, that we should make a >> concerted effort to get them back, even on a "let's try to save >> the game" campaign basis. > > I know we need clue to raise new clue, but (semi-)retired folks > retired for private reasons: not because the game deteriorated, > but other interests have surpassed netrek. > I wouldn't put too much effort on this area, but rather let new > clue develop on its own. But for some of them, they drifted away ten years ago, and now have an "oh, yeah, that was pretty cool" reaction. I went to a wedding yesterday, and met someone who used to play. We talked about ways to market the game. He suggested talking to the MIT strategic games club and making sure that the MIT Athena systems have a current client on them. From his enthusiasm level, I'm pretty sure if I called him and asked him to show up three or four times to help demo the game and get newbs up to speed, he'd do it for old times' sake. Two or three dozen people like that, even if they only help out a few times, could make a difference. Netrek generates an emotional attachment in people; if we tell someone their favorite college sport needs their help to survive, I expect we'll get at least a few people. And maybe some of the ones too busy to play will send us some advertising cash. In one of Red Shirt's guides, he notes that he's retiring from play because he sees himself becoming rude and abusive and doesn't like it. How many players have left because they were tired of being called names, tired of seeing people pissing on each other on the team and all boards? Can we get even a few of them back? >> I think the clue games have succeeded because of scheduling; >> people who want a solid game are more likely to make a set time >> than to drop in. > > Unfortunately this will keep some interested people out who just > can't make it to that time. Timezones and work suck. ;) Sure. It'd be nice if there were daily clue games. But right now we have one that is being moderately successful. And I think it attracts and holds people who would not otherwise be playing; often Pickled has 12-14 players during the clue games, the only time of the week when we regularly have t-mode on two servers at the same time. And that's even with folks obs'ing the clue game. With a few more regular players, maybe we can get to two per week, a 100% increase with twice the opportunities for people to work it into their schedules. Do we have many European players who don't play pickup but would play a clue game if it was in their daytime or evening? --akb From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 18:54:39 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 16:54:39 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> I've been lurking for a while, so my apologize if no one recognizes me :) From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Apr 2 22:23:55 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:23:55 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070402160613.GD17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> <20070402160613.GD17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070403032355.GB14898@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 06:06:13PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Where/ who is _this_ representation of netrek? Exactly, well spotted. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Apr 2 22:23:10 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:23:10 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070402155621.GC17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401224238.GB4164@us.netrek.org> <20070402155621.GC17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070403032310.GA14898@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:56:21PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Uh ... "all of netrek" ... maybe I miss something or misunderstand > you, but aren't the respective client maintainers reponsible for > _their_ babies add newbie improvements? There's no reason why that should be so. With all source in change control, with the languages in use being typical, and with active developers for each client (or server), they should be able to take patches from a single developer (you) implementing a feature that has common appeal. That's how I did it with the metaserver solicitation changes ... issuing patches for Vanilla, INL, and Paradise servers. If you strike a barrier to your patch acceptance, then you have to work with all concerned developers until the problem is resolved. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Apr 2 22:32:51 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:32:51 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> Message-ID: <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 04:54:39PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > If you are going after players, your first target must be Windows, > because that's where the players are. At a minimum, you must make a > client which fully supports this platform. Agreed, and that's been on my list of things to encourage for several years. Just that I won't do it directly myself because I lack experience and software licenses. > A good way to do this would be to write it in C# against .NET and > Mono, using the SDL and OpenGL wrappers as Mono is cross platform. Shrug. Exact implementation technology is unimportant. It is the network protocol that makes the game. If we have developers who will work on that implementation, then go for it. If you need help with the network protocol, I'm here to answer questions. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 2 22:46:04 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 20:46:04 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> Agreed that technically the implementation technology is not important. I suggested it due to its cross-platform capabilities, speed of development time and maintainability. If this project were to become something where many developers have their fingers in the same source code, choosing a technology which readily supports this should be a consideration. If, on the other hand, everyone is going to make their own implementation from scratch (or better yet, from a common reference specification) then indeed the technology doesn't matter. Speaking of the network protocol, has there been any discussion of tuning it up and throwing away compatibility with older servers? Much of the existing protocol assumes C-style block serialization, fixed field sizes and the like. These restrictions and design choices are not necessarily required any more. Also, what about altering the update interval such that it is dynamic based on events, rather than based on strict time base? Should a separate thread be spawned to discuss these or are those decisions already made? - Cliff -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of James Cameron Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 8:33 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 04:54:39PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > If you are going after players, your first target must be Windows, > because that's where the players are. At a minimum, you must make a > client which fully supports this platform. Agreed, and that's been on my list of things to encourage for several years. Just that I won't do it directly myself because I lack experience and software licenses. > A good way to do this would be to write it in C# against .NET and > Mono, using the SDL and OpenGL wrappers as Mono is cross platform. Shrug. Exact implementation technology is unimportant. It is the network protocol that makes the game. If we have developers who will work on that implementation, then go for it. If you need help with the network protocol, I'm here to answer questions. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Apr 2 22:58:59 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:58:59 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 In-Reply-To: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> References: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> Message-ID: <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> On the basis of Karthik's observations and my confirmation of them, and in the absence of a response from Carlos, if I get seconding for this from Dave Ahn, then I will take action to remove the entry from metaserver2. (Otherwise I wait for Carlos). -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Apr 3 00:43:51 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:43:51 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 In-Reply-To: <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> References: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070403054351.GA1376@carlos-desktop> Quoting James Cameron : > On the basis of Karthik's observations and my confirmation of them, and > in the absence of a response from Carlos, if I get seconding for this > from Dave Ahn, then I will take action to remove the entry from > metaserver2. (Otherwise I wait for Carlos). As soon as one of the perferred servers gets a queue, pulsar-zone gets listed on meta1 as well. Like at 10:40pm PST 2007-Apr-2. The technical issue is a bit more complicated. --Carlos V. From mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net Tue Apr 3 01:03:30 2007 From: mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net (Matthew Mondor) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 02:03:30 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 In-Reply-To: <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> References: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070403020330.4662abca@hal.xisop> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 13:58:59 +1000 James Cameron wrote: > On the basis of Karthik's observations and my confirmation of them, and > in the absence of a response from Carlos, if I get seconding for this > from Dave Ahn, then I will take action to remove the entry from > metaserver2. (Otherwise I wait for Carlos). I indeed noticed today that I received a message from Karthik yesterday reguarding the issue. Checking the server, multiple ntserv processes were stuck in a cpu-hungry loop, and although rarely, this has occurred before. It's definitely the result of some bug (and possibly exploitable to go in that state reliably). The server code I run is old by today's standards, and I have no time to take a serious look into the bug or upgrade and reconfigure it. Since the situation occurs more often lately (I quite recently restarted the server for the same issue a couple of times), I suspect an exploit being regularily run (not impossible, as previous non-standard servers have been victim of attacks before), or simply late client changes or normal stress-testing by client developers to trigger the bug inadvertently. Since I can't dedicate the necessary time to deal with it, I'm shutting down the server. If in the past it helped newbies to develop their skills and eventually switch to real human tournaments on twisted or pickled, it could at least reach its goal for the time being. I have even considered temporarily dropping the netrek-dev mailing list subscription because I am not able to keep up to date reading it. It has more traffic than it used to, and this is a good thing, of course. :) Eventually if I get more time to play with netrek or develop for it, I might put up a server again with up-to-date sources and re-subscribe on the list. At that point I might also revamp the metaserver protocol, which has been bugging me for some time (it lacks proper versioning support and is vulnerable to certain attacks). There were also various known problems about my current server configuration which would easily be solved by some hacking, time permitting. Thanks, and best wishes, -- Matt From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Tue Apr 3 02:56:03 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 03:56:03 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! Message-ID: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Just in time for Cheese Weasel Day, and thanks to the more than wonderful assistance of Quozl and help from jrd and Jerub and an irc cast of, well, several, I am pleased as punch to announce the debut of the resurrected and improved Netrek Nexus, now available for your browsing pleasure at: http://www.netrek.org Feel encouraged to spell check, link check, see if those fiddly section nav bits on the nav bar work, and send other suggestions and corrections to me. The site is in darcs for folks who want to do stuff to it. Repo address is the server address. If you need to update set_my_root.php to do development work on your own machine, please ask for help if you are not absolutely sure you know what you are doing. Additional kudos of course go to Dave Ahn, ShadowHunter (the original site architect and coder), and all the content authors past and present... From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Apr 3 03:01:03 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 18:01:03 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 In-Reply-To: <20070403020330.4662abca@hal.xisop> References: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> <20070403020330.4662abca@hal.xisop> Message-ID: <20070403080103.GB23672@us.netrek.org> On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 02:03:30AM -0400, Matthew Mondor wrote: > [...] I suspect an exploit being regularily run (not impossible, as > previous non-standard servers have been victim of attacks before), or > simply late client changes or normal stress-testing by client > developers to trigger the bug inadvertently. There was a known exploit recently fixed, on 2007-03-02, but only if EVENTLOG=1 in etc/sysdef. I've not been told of any others. Thanks for having the server available. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Apr 3 04:14:04 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:14:04 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070403091404.GA31671@us.netrek.org> Looks good, well done. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From williamb at its.caltech.edu Tue Apr 3 05:52:58 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 03:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] pulsar Message-ID: I was going to reply to mmondor directly but his reply email bounced so I'll just post it to list in hopes of reaching him. Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 00:32:40 -0700 (PDT) From: William Balcerski To: Matthew Mondor Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 Hey I dropped you a message in your god log, I created 2 jammed slots by entering the game (first ship) in a base, somehow refitting to a base worked ok though. This was on Sunday with the modified super base stats. Do you have the sysdef settings for SBs somewhere so I can try to reproduce it, and see if it's some sort of out of bounds problem with a ship stat? Sorry to see you decided to remove server, I use it for testing sometimes, good to have older code to compare against. Bill From mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net Tue Apr 3 06:26:29 2007 From: mm_lists at pulsar-zone.net (Matthew Mondor) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 07:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] pulsar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200704031126.l33BQTvm020973@ginseng.xisop> On Tuesday, 3 Apr 2007 6:56:33 William Balcerski wrote: > Hey I dropped you a message in your god log, I created 2 jammed > slots by > entering the game (first ship) in a base, somehow refitting to a > base > worked ok though. This was on Sunday with the modified super > base stats. > Do you have the sysdef settings for SBs somewhere so I can try > to > reproduce it, and see if it's some sort of out of bounds problem > with a > ship stat? Sorry to see you decided to remove server, I use it > for > testing sometimes, good to have older code to compare against. The only permanent SB specific lines I had in sysdef were: SBRANK=1 SBPLANETS=3 As for sunday, the following was automatically enabled during 24h as usual: SB TURNS 170000 SB ACCINT 200 SB DECINT 200 SB ACCS 120 SB TORPDAMAGE 70 SB TORPSPEED 20 SB TORPFUSE 30 SB TORPTURNS 2 SB PLASMADAMAGE 160 SB PLASMAFUSE 25 SB PLASMATURNS 3 SB PLASMASPEED 16 SB PHASERFUSE 4 SB PHASERDAMAGE 150 SB REPAIR 250 SB MAXFUEL 90000 SB WARPCOST 2 SB CLOAKCOST 40 SB MAXARMIES 50 SB MAXSHIELD 1500 SB MAXDAMAGE 1500 SB WPNCOOLRATE 16 SB EGNCOOLRATE 16 SB MAXSPEED 6 SB MAXWPNTEMP 4000 SB MAXENGTEMP 4000 SB MASS 7000 SB TRACTSTR 9000 SB TRACTRNG 1.9 GA TURNS 15000000 GA ACCINT 500 GA DECINT 500 GA ACCS 150 GA MAXARMIES 10 GA MAXFUEL 16000 GA MAXSPEED 16 GA TORPSPEED 20 GA TORPDAMAGE 50 GA TORPFUSE 30 GA TORPTURNS 0 GA PHASERDAMAGE 120 GA PHASERFUSE 5 GA WARPCOST 2 GA CLOAKCOST 12 GA MAXSHIELD 300 GA MAXDAMAGE 400 GA WPNCOOLRATE 12 GA EGNCOOLRATE 12 GA MAXWPNTEMP 3000 GA MAXEGNTEMP 3000 GA REPAIR 200 via a SHIP=1 toggled on/off via cron event, along with SHIPS=SC,DD,CA,BB,AS,SB and SHIPS=SC,DD,CA,BB,AS,SB,GA -- Matthew Mondor From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Apr 3 07:43:50 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 22:43:50 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-server-vanilla-2.13.0 released Message-ID: <20070403124350.GA8546@us.netrek.org> netrek-server-vanilla 2.13.0 was released. http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/ 701ec95935ef5f66c438e55ff481c3e2 netrek-server-vanilla-2.13.0.tar.gz Summary of changes: - core change from 10 to 50 frames per second - refinements made as a result of clue games - increase in weapon and ship direction information given to clients - fix transwarp at one update per second bug - fix several race conditions Detail of changes: clue game support - updates and fixes for pwstats [arumugham] - add TRADE command [arumugham] - fix admin commands [arumugham] - add INL guest motd [arumugham] messaging - allow muting of any slot, not just observers [arumugham] - allow excessive messaging from captains [arumugham] - fix mute for unresolved IP addresses [balcerski] game design - fix spelling of Cassiopeia as pointed out by pog [arumugham] - fix transwarp at one update per second bug [cameron] - option to restrict dropping on unrepresented third space [balcerski] - ships enter facing enemy team [balcerski] - option to allow bases to orbit enemy planets [balcerski] - practice robot torps made safe for other practice robots [cameron] core - change from 10 to 50 simulation frames per second [cameron, north, et al] - fix race condition on slot allocation [cameron] - fix race condition on queue entry allocation [cameron] - fix race condition on player database growth [cameron] - add option to terminate game if only observers present [cameron] - fix restart feature [cameron] infrastructure - generic lock implementation using semaphores [cameron] - add setship test script support program [cameron] - add orbit entry, orbit path, ship and torp flight test scripts [cameron] - add simulation single-step feature in setgame test program [cameron] client protocol changes - FULL_DIRECTION_RESOLUTION [balcerski] - FULL_WEAPON_RESOLUTION [balcerski] - GENERIC_32 [cameron, balcerski] - reverse host name checking against DNS [arumugham] - ip address checking against block lists [arumugham] - FPS [cameron] - UPS [cameron] metaserver protocol changes - report correct player count [arumugham] packaging - debian build test scripts [cameron] - debian build fixes [tanner] - remove files before running libtoolize [thorne] - fix maintainer-clean target [arumugham] - MAC OS X compile fix [arumugham] -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070403/27d249b6/attachment.pgp From regrado at web.de Tue Apr 3 07:45:12 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:45:12 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <0q4pnycpv0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q4pnycpv0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070403124511.GC23010@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 19:34:43 -0400 -= > But for some of them, they drifted away ten years ago, and now > have an "oh, yeah, that was pretty cool" reaction. I went to a > wedding yesterday, and met someone who used to play. That's fine if you have contact with them already/ for free and they still like to return on their _own_, otherwise I'd let them have their peace. > {...} if we tell someone their favorite college sport needs > their help to survive, I expect we'll get at least a few people. If there still is some interest in the game, few will have enough momentum to join right now to bring it back, but rather jump on the band-wagon once it's running again, and by that time it will attract them on their own. But go ahead and try, if you know how to contact them. I don't know how to reach them all. > And maybe some of the ones too busy to play will send us some > advertising cash. ... prepare pointers for such so that they might stumble over it if they care to browse the pages, but I wouldn't ask them for money. Interested people who can afford it will do it on their own. > Can we get even a few of them back? Probably, but again not by force, but rather attraction through mass. We'll have to do the preparational ground-work before they return. (and in this extreme example, I'd prefer such veterans to return later, when the crowd can take the hot air from such clue again ;) > Do we have many European players who don't play pickup but would > play a clue game if it was in their daytime or evening? Hmm, I might retry after years of no action, but I'd have to rework my config. :) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Tue Apr 3 09:58:47 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:58:47 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Broken pulsar-zone listing on meta2 In-Reply-To: <20070403020330.4662abca@hal.xisop> References: <38066B37-A208-4A09-9D80-CF8A509B9C10@karthik.com> <20070403035859.GE14898@us.netrek.org> <20070403020330.4662abca@hal.xisop> Message-ID: <20070403145847.GD23010@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Matthew Mondor wrote on Tue 3.Apr'07 at 2:03:30 -0400 -= > I have even considered temporarily dropping the netrek-dev > mailing list subscription because I am not able to keep up to > date reading it. It has more traffic than it used to, and this > is a good thing, of course. :) Hey, you don't have to read them as soon as they come in, unless you want to reply. Store them for later, when you have the time to chime in and revive old threads. :) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From ahn at orion.netrek.org Tue Apr 3 23:48:22 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 00:48:22 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070401220537.GA30005@mark.mielke.cc> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> <20070401073141.GA22377@mark.mielke.cc> <20070401180558.GA25318@orion.netrek.org> <20070401220537.GA30005@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070404044822.GA26096@orion.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 06:05:37PM -0400, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > The underlying point here, is that it is *not possible* to 100% > guarantee that the client is legitimate unless you can control the > software and hardware on the client. > > Sorry if this point isn't of concern to you, or if I confused the > issue in any way. :-) I understood your points in your original response and this followup response. You and I disagree on the intended use of RES-RSA within the scope of the Netrek binary verification system and the intended scope of the system itself. It makes any subsequent contentions moot. In any event, we do agree that the system is clearly weak and can easily be circumvented. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 03:51:20 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 04:51:20 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: On 3/31/07, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > The issue here is two-fold: Hi Mark, Thanks for explaining further that was interesting. Do you know how commercial games which use a client-server model handle this problem? And how about more sensitive data such as those financial institutions, the military, for profit R&D, govt. R&D would handle. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:29:08 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:29:08 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 4/2/07, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > A well-done interactive newbie tutorial would do FAR, FAR more for > the game than changing basic features that make the game slightly > easier at the expense of removing key elements of skill AND strategy. > Many people forget that what seems like simple skill in fact leads > into strategic play. Teaching newbies proper detting is fine but I still see a lot of newbies who have a very hard time figuring out: * who is the enemy (the classic shooting at their own teammates) * how to send messages to ALL and team boards * that you need kills to take (how to beam up/down armies) * what t mode is and what it means if there is no t mode and you are trying certain things * how to twarp to a base * how to change their keymap/buttonmap * making their own macros This may seem trivial but it could be the obstacle that cause some to give up in despair. All of these issues could be addressed on client side without a ton of work probably. I've also been championing an interactive newbie tutorial for years, this could have a real immediate impact on new player turnoff I think. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:35:14 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:35:14 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Just pop a GAIM module into Netrek clients hehe. Zach On 4/1/07, James Cameron wrote: > On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 03:41:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > Wait! > > The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! > > Fix them. > > > At least I remember when I saw them the 1st time: I had _no idea_ > > what ++ or "ogg" means. > > ++ means "Saw ship beam up armies". > > ogg means "Give them a new ship", or "Send them back home", but could be > localised into "Kill." > > > And the info alone doesn't help either, an additional clue as to > > what would be a good reaction would help, too! > > Yes, fix that too please. > > ++ means "Enemy ship is threatening our planets by picking up armies, > kill them, you get more credit for armies in flight." Then a checkbox > to enable abbreviated RCD output, and a mouse-over tooltip/hint that > explains what "++" and "ogg" mean. > > -- > > The point of restricting communication to RCDs is that abuse is less > likely to occur. You said that abuse was that important, and I agree. > > This has nothing to do with clue play. Clue have thick hides. > > -- > > And in response to Andrew's observation that it may "keep people from > giving them constructive clues", certainly, there is a risk of throwing > out more than the bath water. Here's an additional suggestion ... > > "F0 (Psychosis) wants to be your buddy, do you wish to add them to your > buddy list? This will let them talk without using Netrek Code (RCD). > Warning: you may be offended." > > -- > James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:41:46 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:41:46 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: What client did you use for the screenshots? Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:41:09 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:41:09 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: Nice. Zach On 4/3/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Just in time for Cheese Weasel Day, and thanks to the more than > wonderful assistance of Quozl and help from jrd and Jerub and an irc > cast of, well, several, I am pleased as punch to announce the debut of > the resurrected and improved Netrek Nexus, now available for your > browsing pleasure at: > > http://www.netrek.org > > Feel encouraged to spell check, link check, see if those fiddly > section nav bits on the nav bar work, and send other suggestions > and corrections to me. > > The site is in darcs for folks who want to do stuff to it. > Repo address is the server address. > > If you need to update set_my_root.php to do development work > on your own machine, please ask for help if you are not absolutely > sure you know what you are doing. > > Additional kudos of course go to Dave Ahn, ShadowHunter (the original > site architect and coder), and all the content authors past and present... > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:43:30 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:43:30 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: In "Leagues and Clue Games" some the text is spilling over under the graphic: "game recordings from" "Netrek League (WNL), " Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:51:36 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:51:36 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <0q4pnycpv0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q4pnycpv0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On 4/2/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > With a few more regular players, maybe we can get to two per week, > a 100% increase with twice the opportunities for people to > work it into their schedules. Do we have many European > players who don't play pickup but would play a clue game if it > was in their daytime or evening? The EuroTwinks mailing list is still around and anecdotally I see still a fair bit of Euro players (+ assorted other non-North America players). I think a Euro server would help them. If they can get their own pickup scene going again it may lead to Euros again hosting their own vs World clue pickup games. From talking to Euros that are not oldbies most of them stumbled upon netrek by total chance. We need more Euro centric advertizing. And more people in Asia are getting broadband now. 2+ billion people is lots of potential trekers. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 04:57:18 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:57:18 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts (Paradise as entry-level) In-Reply-To: <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> Message-ID: On 4/2/07, ChronosWS wrote: > > Speaking of the network protocol, has there been any discussion of tuning it > up and throwing away compatibility with older servers? Much of the existing > protocol assumes C-style block serialization, fixed field sizes and the > like. These restrictions and design choices are not necessarily required > any more. Also, what about altering the update interval such that it is > dynamic based on events, rather than based on strict time base? Should a > separate thread be spawned to discuss these or are those decisions already > made? Howdy Cliff, Good idea. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 4 06:46:34 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:46:34 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070404114633.GA26346@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 05:43:30AM -0400, Zach wrote: > In "Leagues and Clue Games" some the text is spilling over under the > graphic: > "game recordings from" > "Netrek League (WNL), " Fix it then. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From mark at mark.mielke.cc Wed Apr 4 10:22:55 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:22:55 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070404152255.GA3943@mark.mielke.cc> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 04:51:20AM -0400, Zach wrote: > Thanks for explaining further that was interesting. Do you know how > commercial games which use a client-server model handle this problem? If we are talking about PC games: For the most part - they are just as weak. Almost any game out there that people want to play has been 'cracked'. Now, they are into the realm of subscription fees, and regular software update requirements. In World of Warcraft, Blizzard specifically reserves the right within the user agreement to scan your system for any third party plug-ins, enhancements, or cracks. Renewal accounts, and the online requirement that only one person use the account at a time means that a key cannot be abused without it being linked to a credit card that can be charged. If we are talking about console games: The modern ones have built in hardware to do its best to 'control the software and hardware of the client'. The Microsoft X-Box has cryptographic control of the major hardware components, including the hard drive. Nintendo and a few others have preferred to use custom media formats that are difficult for end users to duplicate. They do their best, but even they are still cracked. > And how about more sensitive data such as those financial > institutions, the military, for profit R&D, govt. R&D would handle. In most areas, a password is sufficient. The client software does not need to be controlled. A standard web browser might be acceptable. The user enters a password. The authenticated account grants accounts to resources. To protect the password and body from eavesdropping, one of several algorithms are used to encrypt the transmissions between client and server (SSL/TLS being common). However, attempts are still made to control software. For example, when I connect to work using Contivity, they now require that software known as TunnelGuard is active. TunnelGuard ensures that my computer meets the configured requirements in terms of anti-virus and firewall software on my PC before allowing me to use the connection. This software would have the same problem, though. It could be cracked, because the algorithm and secret key is distributed widely to all clients. I don't know how it is included - whether it is more sophisticated than RES-RSA or not - and I won't, because cracking the software would be a violation of some agreement I'm sure. :-) Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From narcis at luky.nl Wed Apr 4 13:13:45 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:13:45 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Zach > > And how about more sensitive data such as those financial > institutions, the military, for profit R&D, govt. R&D would handle. Generally military systems are not open source and not connected to internet unless heavily firewalled. But in general, same thing. Key is usually stored on a hardware device like a dongle. Greetz, Chris P.S. back to the original topic: Karthik has added the 1.2 development key to pickeled and it works like a charm. I've mailed the key to the list and Carlos several times, so i hope it will make it to all servers in due time, but there seems little more i can do from this end. From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Apr 4 13:25:23 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:25:23 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070404182523.GA2264@carlos-desktop> Quoting Narcis : > Karthik has added the 1.2 development key to pickeled and it works > like a charm. I've mailed the key to the list and Carlos several > times, so i hope it will make it to all servers in due time, but > there seems little more i can do from this end. I added it when you first sent it. Are the servers running their key update processes? [my machine] ~ $ telnet clientkeys.netrek.org 3530 # key.mactrek-1.2.0.macosx:ct=MacTrek 1.2.0:cr=info at luky.nl:\ :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):\ :cm=http://sourceforge.net/projects/mactrek:\ :gk=73b4d3258fcbdce83caabd297c771e5d8ce342e838673a6c0ae942c95b145c2e:\ :pk=ef6dd3afb529f1e2ce3e5b367cbb859a08b34ab4119216d7fe8dd5624f010201: # Yup, it's there. --Carlos V. From karthik at karthik.com Wed Apr 4 13:31:39 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:31:39 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070404182523.GA2264@carlos-desktop> References: <20070404182523.GA2264@carlos-desktop> Message-ID: <44CF1C29-E204-4678-807A-52F713BDA51F@karthik.com> On Apr 4, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Carlos Y. Villalpando wrote: > I added it when you first sent it. Are the servers running their key > update processes? > > [my machine] ~ $ telnet clientkeys.netrek.org 3530 > > > # > key.mactrek-1.2.0.macosx:ct=MacTrek 1.2.0:cr=info at luky.nl:\ > :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):\ > :cm=http://sourceforge.net/projects/mactrek:\ > :gk=73b4d3258fcbdce83caabd297c771e5d8ce342e838673a6c0ae942c95b145c2 > e:\ > :pk=ef6dd3afb529f1e2ce3e5b367cbb859a08b34ab4119216d7fe8dd5624f01020 > 1: > # > You are missing the class list. :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):\ should read :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):cl=inl,standard2:\ We should probably updated mkkey to include these by default, since they do have to be manually added in for every key. From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Apr 4 13:52:59 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 11:52:59 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <44CF1C29-E204-4678-807A-52F713BDA51F@karthik.com> References: <20070404182523.GA2264@carlos-desktop> <44CF1C29-E204-4678-807A-52F713BDA51F@karthik.com> Message-ID: <20070404185259.GA4056@carlos-desktop> Quoting Karthik Arumugham : > You are missing the class list. Fixed. --Carlos V. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 20:55:48 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 21:55:48 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] metaserver2 ? Message-ID: Reading defaults file netrekrc unknown host 'metaserver2.us.netrek.org' Cannot connect to MetaServer (metaserver2.us.netrek.org , 3521) From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 4 21:56:32 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:56:32 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] metaserver2 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070405025632.GA5511@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 09:55:48PM -0400, Zach wrote: > Reading defaults file netrekrc > unknown host 'metaserver2.us.netrek.org' > Cannot connect to MetaServer (metaserver2.us.netrek.org , 3521) Works for me. You must have a temporary DNS problem. $ host metaserver2.us.netrek.org metaserver2.us.netrek.org is an alias for orion.netrek.org. orion.netrek.org has address 65.193.17.240 $ telnet metaserver2.us.netrek.org 3521 [success] -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 4 22:02:49 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:02:49 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070405030249.GB5511@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 08:13:45PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > Karthik has added the 1.2 development key to pickeled and it works > like a charm. I've mailed the key to the list and Carlos several > times, so i hope it will make it to all servers in due time, but there > seems little more i can do from this end. Does it work on continuum? I've lost memory on how the key update process works, so I've no idea if continuum is doing it or not. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 22:56:21 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 23:56:21 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: <20070404114633.GA26346@us.netrek.org> References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070404114633.GA26346@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 4/4/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Fix it then. I don't have an account on web server's machine which serves www.netrek.org. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Apr 4 23:51:20 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 14:51:20 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070404114633.GA26346@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070405045120.GC5511@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 11:56:21PM -0400, Zach wrote: > I don't have an account on web server's machine which serves > www.netrek.org. You don't need one. You need: - darcs, - a computer, e.g. running Linux, or a shell account, - ability to edit HTML, - a way to mail a patch, or to host a copy of the repo on your shell account, as you already did before with the previous www.netrek.org http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~chaos/www.netrek.org So ssh to chaos, cd to public_html, mv www.netrek.org to www.netrek.org.old, then darcs get http://www.netrek.org/ -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From narcis at luky.nl Thu Apr 5 12:18:49 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 19:18:49 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 26, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <896172A7-F949-458C-9B02-90B3C4E886D7@luky.nl> > I added it when you first sent it. Are the servers running their key > update processes? > > [my machine] ~ $ telnet clientkeys.netrek.org 3530 > > > # > key.mactrek-1.2.0.macosx:ct=MacTrek 1.2.0:cr=info at luky.nl:\ > :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):\ > :cm=http://sourceforge.net/projects/mactrek:\ > :gk=73b4d3258fcbdce83caabd297c771e5d8ce342e838673a6c0ae942c95b145c2 > e:\ > :pk=ef6dd3afb529f1e2ce3e5b367cbb859a08b34ab4119216d7fe8dd5624f01020 > 1: > # > Muchias Gracias, it verifies on all mayor servers (including continuum) now. Time for a new release. (just updating the documentation is left.....) Chris From williamb at its.caltech.edu Fri Apr 6 02:20:18 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 00:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo Message-ID: I'm looking to add a new RSA key to wherever is the central darcs repository for the metaserver is, but I'm not sure where it is exactly. Tried pulling metaserver.us.netrek.org but it doesn't have any patches newer than 2006. Quozl's metaserver repo has more recent patches but it doesn't have the Mactrek key in it. With my previous key I just added it to the rsa_keys file via sourceforge CVS, I figured I'd just do the equivalent. And then I'd just ask the metaserver owners to darcs pull and (I think) that will be all that is needed, as the server client keys should then pull in the new key once metaservers are restarted. But yea, to the point, which repository should I submit the key to, and shouldn't the Mactrek key be there as well? Bill From netrek at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 02:35:33 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 03:35:33 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/6/07, William Balcerski wrote: > I'm looking to add a new RSA key to wherever is the central darcs > repository for the metaserver is, but I'm not sure where it is exactly. > Tried pulling metaserver.us.netrek.org but it doesn't have any patches > newer than 2006. Quozl's metaserver repo has more recent patches but it > doesn't have the Mactrek key in it. With my previous key I just added it > to the rsa_keys file via sourceforge CVS, I figured I'd just do the > equivalent. > And then I'd just ask the metaserver owners to darcs pull and (I think) > that will be all that is needed, as the server client keys should then > pull in the new key once metaservers are restarted. But yea, to the > point, which repository should I submit the key to, and shouldn't the > Mactrek key be there as well? > Bill Maybe having all the key signatures publicly accessible would be a risk vector. Zach From regrado at web.de Fri Apr 6 07:45:28 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:45:28 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070403032310.GA14898@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401144023.GA13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401224238.GB4164@us.netrek.org> <20070402155621.GC17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070403032310.GA14898@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070406124528.GA9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Tue 3.Apr'07 at 13:23:10 +1000 -= > On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 05:56:21PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > Uh ... "all of netrek" ... maybe I miss something or misunderstand > > you, but aren't the respective client maintainers reponsible for > > _their_ babies add newbie improvements? > > With all source in change control, with the languages in use > being typical, and with active developers for each client (or > server), they should be able to take patches from a single > developer (you) implementing a feature that has common appeal. Which would require 1 to go through the code of all other clients rather than let client coders check their own code. (how many are out there besides Paradise/TT, 5?) > That's how I did it with the metaserver solicitation changes ... > issuing patches for Vanilla, INL, and Paradise servers. That was just 3 total and the one unfamilar to you was not maintained at that time, there was nobody to ask for help. > If you strike a barrier to your patch acceptance, then you have to > work with all concerned developers until the problem is resolved. Well, rather than to strike barriers, I offer this idea and let the developers implement them as they like. If they want this idea but not do it themselves, then they may ask for it and get help. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Fri Apr 6 07:56:27 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:56:27 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> Message-ID: <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- ChronosWS wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 20:46:04 -0700 -= > Speaking of the network protocol, has there been any discussion of > tuning it up and throwing away compatibility with older servers? > Much of the existing protocol assumes C-style block serialization, > fixed field sizes and the like. These restrictions and design > choices are not necessarily required any more. Also, what about > altering the update interval such that it is dynamic based on > events, rather than based on strict time base? Who do you expect to answer or even decide this? As you might have noticed from my requests and rections to them, nobody wants to answer the call for responsibility + control, but many easily throw in their opinions and expect that somebody picks them up to either implement them or to stop somebody from implementing them. Pretty messy with no clear direction. > Should a separate thread be spawned to discuss these or are > those decisions already made? Yes, please, and don't repeat my mistake of being too lazy: change to a better fitting subject as the thread topic changes, or even start a new thread. (damn, who inserted all the TABS in the subject of this thread?!) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Fri Apr 6 08:10:20 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:10:20 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070403032355.GB14898@us.netrek.org> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> <20070402160613.GD17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070403032355.GB14898@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070406131019.GC9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Tue 3.Apr'07 at 13:23:55 +1000 -= > On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 06:06:13PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > Where/ who is _this_ representation of netrek? > > Exactly, well spotted. Erhm. I was and still am well aware that currently there is no such thing as "netrek manager/ ruler/ director/ governor" (single person or group). (since you told me when I asked you the 1st time several months (few years?) ago). The purpose of all my asking is to find out whether such a role is - wanted+supported+enforced/ controlled by infra-structure owners, - and how it can be installed. So far I had no definitive answer besides "we don't have such a thing". Does this mean you don't _want_ it either, ever? Because such a thing like "netrek manager/ ruler/ director/ governor" can not work without the support of the infra-structure owners. Either there has to be an independent body, or the owners take over responsibility, with requirements like enforcing standards (and legal use == control blessing) which come with that. What shall it be? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Fri Apr 6 10:11:26 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:11:26 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> May I then suggest we set up a forum, where the devs can log in, throw down their ideas and have them discussed. When a decision is arrived at, collect it into the official document so people can read what the current canon is. For my own project, we do a lot of brainstorming in IM during the day. He then posts the IM to the forums so we have a complete record of how we arrived to the decision. Then I distill it into a separate post containing all of the important points so action can be taken. So far it's worked for us and keeps things pretty well organized without going overboard on having a bunch of Word or OO docs running around. I can set up a forum for this on my co-lo box if people are interested in it. Unfortunately, that box does not have properly configured email services, so it can't do nice things like notify you when posts have changed and whatnot. Is this something the group would be interested in? -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Rado S Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 5:56 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject =- ChronosWS wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 20:46:04 -0700 -= > Speaking of the network protocol, has there been any discussion of > tuning it up and throwing away compatibility with older servers? > Much of the existing protocol assumes C-style block serialization, > fixed field sizes and the like. These restrictions and design > choices are not necessarily required any more. Also, what about > altering the update interval such that it is dynamic based on > events, rather than based on strict time base? Who do you expect to answer or even decide this? As you might have noticed from my requests and rections to them, nobody wants to answer the call for responsibility + control, but many easily throw in their opinions and expect that somebody picks them up to either implement them or to stop somebody from implementing them. Pretty messy with no clear direction. > Should a separate thread be spawned to discuss these or are > those decisions already made? Yes, please, and don't repeat my mistake of being too lazy: change to a better fitting subject as the thread topic changes, or even start a new thread. (damn, who inserted all the TABS in the subject of this thread?!) -- C Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From regrado at web.de Fri Apr 6 10:36:50 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:36:50 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> Message-ID: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> You ignored my advice on changing the subject. :( =- ChronosWS wrote on Fri 6.Apr'07 at 8:11:26 -0700 -= > May I then suggest we set up a forum, {...} What would this be different from using this ML? Just set a useful subject (and add/ adjust in sub-threads when they fork)! > Unfortunately, that box does not have properly configured email > services, so it can't do nice things like notify you when posts > have changed and whatnot. ML does this already. ;) > Is this something the group would be interested in? The discussion: yes, forum: no, use ML as suggested. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Apr 6 15:47:48 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:47:48 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070406204748.GA3788@carlos-desktop> Quoting William Balcerski : > I'm looking to add a new RSA key to wherever is the central darcs > repository for the metaserver is, but I'm not sure where it is > exactly. That's because there isn't one, officially. Quozl keeps revision control locally for him, and when the metaserver used to be under CVS, I commited the keys to CVS as a backup. Currently, I don't commit anywhere at the moment. To add a key, send e-mail to clientkeys at clientkeys.netrek.org. Currently, that's me, but it can be whoever is wearing the keygod hat. > With my previous key I just added it to the rsa_keys file via > sourceforge CVS, I figured I'd just do the equivalent. No, if you have a key in the ring, it means you sent it to me. I only ever committed that file to CVS, I never pulled it. > But yea, to the point, which repository should I submit the key to, > and shouldn't the Mactrek key be there as well? No repository. The official channel is clientkeys at clientkeys.netrek.org. Servers pull keys from clientkeys.netrek.org port 3530. Currently, clientkeys.netrek.org points to metaserver2.us.netrek.org. --Carlos V. From sgtjiminy at hotmail.com Fri Apr 6 17:49:52 2007 From: sgtjiminy at hotmail.com (James Turner-Crowe) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 22:49:52 +0000 Subject: [netrek-dev] its just the beginnins In-Reply-To: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: I was just wondering if anyone remembers me? im the guy who started going on about making a new server with a bundle of new features on it. It's taken me until now to start talking and I have no idea why. prehaps just a bit shy :) i must warn anyone who hasnt seen it, the bundle of new features i thought up are put in a pretty huge Notepad Document. I'll post it if you want?? (I can't remember if i already did, but i know i told someone about it already) _________________________________________________________________ Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes. http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Apr 6 19:28:40 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:28:40 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> Message-ID: <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 08:11:26AM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > May I then suggest we set up a forum, [...] I use this mailing list. It is a forum. It has a web archive. If you want a separate mailing list for authenticated pontificating, that would mean people would have to look somewhere else. I like mailing list because it all comes to me and I don't have to log in anywhere. > where the devs can log in, [...] Log in to read mail? Count me out. ;-) That's an access barrier. > throw down > their ideas and have them discussed. When a decision is arrived at, collect > it into the official document so people can read what the current canon is. We have official documents in the source control repositories of each subproject, client, server, metaserver. We also have Wiki pages. That doesn't make them official though, there is no central government yet. > For my own project, we do a lot of brainstorming in IM during the day. He > then posts the IM to the forums so we have a complete record of how we > arrived to the decision. Yes, we've been doing that already. We use instant messaging over the IRC protocol, server irc.freenode.net, channel #netrek. Several of us log it. The logs find their way into change control comments or Wiki, or this forum. > us and keeps things pretty well organized without going overboard on having > a bunch of Word or OO docs running around. If it can't be expressed in text, there has to be a problem in how it is conveyed. > I can set up a forum for this on my co-lo box if people are interested in > it. Unfortunately, that box does not have properly configured email > services, so it can't do nice things like notify you when posts have changed > and whatnot. > > Is this something the group would be interested in? Thanks for the offer, but no, I'm not interested in that. If you think there is a target group that won't use mail but will use forums, you could set up a forum mirror of this mailing list, such that all posts to it appear in your forum, and all posts to the forum appear as threaded replies in the mailing list. As long as it doesn't break and spew mail everywhere, that would be fine. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Apr 6 19:30:35 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:30:35 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] its just the beginnins In-Reply-To: References: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070407003035.GB8578@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 10:49:52PM +0000, James Turner-Crowe wrote: > i must warn anyone who hasnt seen it, the bundle of new features i thought > up are put in a pretty huge Notepad Document. I'll post it if you want?? Post it on the wiki, then post a link to the mailing list. Or if it really isn't huge, post the whole thing inline in a message to the mailing list. Or if it has sections, post a section each day and watch the ensuing discussion. Don't send attachments, because that lowers the chance of someone reading it. I scroll to read. If I have to click, it reduces the chances I'll read. Discussion is good, but not if it's a small group off on their own with their own technology. ;-) -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Apr 6 19:36:41 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:36:41 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: <20070406131019.GC9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401050238.GD7260@us.netrek.org> <20070401155739.GC13991@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070401230322.GC4164@us.netrek.org> <20070402160613.GD17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070403032355.GB14898@us.netrek.org> <20070406131019.GC9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070407003641.GC8578@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 03:10:20PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > The purpose of all my asking is to find out whether such a role is > - wanted+supported+enforced/ controlled by infra-structure owners, > - and how it can be installed. So you're asking me my thoughts on a netrek governer? Wanted: yes. Supported: what does that mean? If it means I'll agree with everything the governer says, no. If it means I'll do whatever the governer says, no. If it means I'll help manage infrastructure the governer needs, yes. Enforced: what does that mean? If it means I'll block an IP address just because the governer says, no. I'd have to understand the reasons and accept them. If it means I won't try to circumvent a block placed on me by a governer, no. > What shall it be? An interesting question. But you can't rely on my answer alone, I do not represent anyone but myself, and then only half the time. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From chronosws at comcast.net Fri Apr 6 19:54:05 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:54:05 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> Perhaps I am confused. If this project is then so organized, why is there no apparent direction? Mailing lists, at least to me, seem quite a disorganized way of attacking the problem of information dissemination and retention. The reason I suggest forums is that you can contain both canon and discussion within a single organizational unit. Persons who are interested in only a subset of those organizational units need not plow through/organize/search the myriad of discussions which occur here. Further, by containing canon with the discussion people can know what has actually been decided, versus what the last thing said in a discussion was, which may not be an actual decision (and from what I have heard here about people making suggestions but not running with them, this is often the case.) I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low cost steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. The wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet points with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan of any sort. If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, add a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it and you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even though we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by which the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during their development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and docs in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's all in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of potential players? -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of James Cameron Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 5:29 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 08:11:26AM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > May I then suggest we set up a forum, [...] I use this mailing list. It is a forum. It has a web archive. If you want a separate mailing list for authenticated pontificating, that would mean people would have to look somewhere else. I like mailing list because it all comes to me and I don't have to log in anywhere. > where the devs can log in, [...] Log in to read mail? Count me out. ;-) That's an access barrier. > throw down > their ideas and have them discussed. When a decision is arrived at, collect > it into the official document so people can read what the current canon is. We have official documents in the source control repositories of each subproject, client, server, metaserver. We also have Wiki pages. That doesn't make them official though, there is no central government yet. > For my own project, we do a lot of brainstorming in IM during the day. He > then posts the IM to the forums so we have a complete record of how we > arrived to the decision. Yes, we've been doing that already. We use instant messaging over the IRC protocol, server irc.freenode.net, channel #netrek. Several of us log it. The logs find their way into change control comments or Wiki, or this forum. > us and keeps things pretty well organized without going overboard on having > a bunch of Word or OO docs running around. If it can't be expressed in text, there has to be a problem in how it is conveyed. > I can set up a forum for this on my co-lo box if people are interested in > it. Unfortunately, that box does not have properly configured email > services, so it can't do nice things like notify you when posts have changed > and whatnot. > > Is this something the group would be interested in? Thanks for the offer, but no, I'm not interested in that. If you think there is a target group that won't use mail but will use forums, you could set up a forum mirror of this mailing list, such that all posts to it appear in your forum, and all posts to the forum appear as threaded replies in the mailing list. As long as it doesn't break and spew mail everywhere, that would be fine. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From netrek at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 23:19:58 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 00:19:58 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo In-Reply-To: <20070406204748.GA3788@carlos-desktop> References: <20070406204748.GA3788@carlos-desktop> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, Carlos Y. Villalpando wrote: > > That's because there isn't one, officially. Quozl keeps revision > control locally for him, and when the metaserver used to be under CVS, > I commited the keys to CVS as a backup. Currently, I don't commit > anywhere at the moment. Hi Carlos, Since darcs has replaced CVS perhaps you could setup a darcs repo or if you're too busy Quozl could set one up for you? Then if the project eventually moves to something besides darcs it shouldn't be too painless to convert from darcs to whatever. Have a consistent upgrade process for the server, client and metaserver code + client keys. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Fri Apr 6 23:39:10 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 00:39:10 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] its just the beginnins In-Reply-To: References: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, James Turner-Crowe wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone remembers me? im the guy who started going on > about making a new server with a bundle of new features on it. > > It's taken me until now to start talking and I have no idea why. prehaps > just a bit shy :) > > i must warn anyone who hasnt seen it, the bundle of new features i thought > up are put in a pretty huge Notepad Document. I'll post it if you want?? Hi James, Cool I would like to see it. Zach ????? !???????? ! From netrek at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 00:12:56 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 01:12:56 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] its just the beginnins In-Reply-To: <20070407003035.GB8578@us.netrek.org> References: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070407003035.GB8578@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 4/6/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Discussion is good, but not if it's a small group off on their own with > their own technology. ;-) Isn't that how Linux started? ;-) Zach From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sat Apr 7 02:53:45 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 03:53:45 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Nexus is Back! In-Reply-To: (Zach's message of "Wed, 4 Apr 2007 05:43:30 -0400") References: <0qvegdc2ng.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <0qirc88vsm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Zach writes: > In "Leagues and Clue Games" some the text is spilling over under the graphic: > > "game recordings from" > "Netrek League (WNL), " Better? And how would you feel about putting together some of the smaller guides on the to-do list? You could send me straight html, and I can add the php stuff to make it look like the other pages... Lemme know what you think... --andy From williamb at its.caltech.edu Sat Apr 7 04:41:46 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low cost > steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. The > wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet points > with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan > of any sort. > The wiki is a reference, not intended to be a todo list. > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, add > a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it and > you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have > what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have > professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even though > we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. > I fail to see why we need yet another forum when we have 2 active mailing lists, 1 code commit mailing list, 1 dead mailing list, IRC, rec.games.netrek, and the forums at playnetrek.org. > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by which > the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be > readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during their > development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and > decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and docs > in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's all > in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their > jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the > forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) uses it. And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco anyone? :P). Perhaps I should lay out the state of netrek development. There are 4 "active" developers working on code, besides akb who is working on the web site. There are also some people who contribute once every few months but I wouldn't call them active. Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one else is up to speed on Mac development. Quozl, Karthik, and myself work on server development - we use IRC to pass ideas/code back and forth. In my experience, rarely have I needed email to discuss the code, as the guru (aka Quozl) is around frequently. I also work on the Window client, I work alone because no one else is up to speed on Windows development. We have ample infrastructure for communicating. We have mechanisms for task assignments (server has several TODO lists such as PROJECTS and BUGS). I have another TODO list for the client. More developers are welcome. The barrier to joining development is low (server) to moderate (client). People on IRC are around to answer any questions to help developers. I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will it be you? ;) > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of > potential players? > We have paid advertising (thanks Joe), we have a high google ranking (thanks Joe again), we have a list of ideas: http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas Any other suggestions on what we should be doing? Bill From regrado at web.de Sat Apr 7 10:55:34 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 17:55:34 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> References: <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> Message-ID: <20070407155534.GB21043@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- ChronosWS wrote on Fri 6.Apr'07 at 17:54:05 -0700 -= > The reason I suggest forums is that you can contain both canon > and discussion within a single organizational unit. Ok, this is split up here and now in ML == discussion and wiki == canon (or rather the summarized results). > Persons who are interested in only a subset of those > organizational units need not plow through/organize/search the > myriad of discussions which occur here. If well done, they should find it on the wiki. > Further, by containing canon with the discussion people can know > what has actually been decided, versus what the last thing said > in a discussion was, which may not be an actual decision (and > from what I have heard here about people making suggestions but > not running with them, this is often the case.) This could be noted on the wiki (either with comments or separate pages). > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are > common-sense, low cost steps which can be taken to facilitate a > cohesive development strategy. I think we have this with the ML + wiki. > The wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection > of bullet points with no one having bothered to distill or > synthesize the ideas into a plan of any sort. No tool will do what the humans are supposed to. Once you have _somebody_ who'll do the work, it doesn't matter which tool to use. Forum or wiki, technically they don't make a great difference in skill requirement by the writer. > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum {...} I truly and seriously prefer ML+wiki over web-Forum. I've worked with all 3 of them, and that's the result. ;) A forum is primarily the same as a ML. Separate discussion of a forum is realized by separate threads, you just have to keep them apart with your local copies or when scanning the archives. (a threading capable MUA helps a lot, see mutt ;) Storing results in forums means to start another topic/ thread/ just for that, which for us means to put it into the wiki. Even with a forum people must be willing to spend the overhead to add something. It's not less than using the wiki + ML. > {do ...} what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the > level which you have professed to desire. Some things take time and slowly get moving. Netrek revival is going on for ... 10y+ now. ;) > It's a serious task which is proposed, and even though we are > part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. Exclusive dedication is something not all of us can afford. I'll see what I can do about working with the wiki. > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a > mechanism by which the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual > plan and have that plan be readily available to all developers who > will be referring to it during their development process. a) the means are already there. b) we don't have those leaders (officially). => that's why we're stuck: - not because we don't have the tools. ;) - but because the people don't use them or have no directions. > Having a single point of access for discussion and decisions > means there is no need to know about {...} Unfortunately this single access-point is not liked more than the current (at least I prefer ML+wiki over forum, better suited for the different aspects). > {...} and if people are doing their jobs, {...} That's the main problem with whatever tool/ technology we use. (BTW, you still haven't adjusted the subject! See, it's easy to miss minor overhead for the greater good :-/) > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge > pool of potential players? *sigh* We need a direction before we can get moving, and that's what we're lacking currently (see other threads). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Sat Apr 7 12:21:51 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:21:51 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows Development In-Reply-To: References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> Message-ID: <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> I'll be on the IRC channel. I'd like to discuss how to move the Windows client (and by proxy other clients) forward. In brief though, these are the things I think we should do, in the order I'd recommend doing them. 1. Create a Main Menu/Title screen, with access to options, etc. 2. Integrate the external tools (configuration, cambot, tutorial) into the main game exe, accessible from the main menu 3. Ensure that the UI conforms to Windows standards. Namely, that the main game windows have normal controls (close, minimize) and responds properly to them. 4. Integrate the metaserver UI into the game UI as the first screen you hit when you start, rather than a separate window which pops up. 5. Examine the use of keyboard input on the login screen. For example, ESC should be used to quit the game (or bring up a 'Really Quit?' box) and a more standard username/password UI should be implemented. I believe these items will go a long ways towards making the game feel more like a cohesive product than a scattering of applications and poorly-behaving windows apps. Later on I'd start to tackle some of the more drastic changes: 1. Scrap the UI code, at least for Windows. Not only is it messy, but it's not flexible enough to allow the proper use of modern UI elements and design. Enable more significant 'themeing' capabilities. 2. Revamp the graphics system to use a mechanism more suited to modern day graphics expectations that would allow us to significantly up-rate the graphics in the future. Probably something 3D. 3. Update the network protocol (along with the server side) to allow event-based network updates. Along with this would be client-side extrapolation of movement for ships based on the last known speed/heading, which would lead to MUCH smoother graphics. (this is non-trivial though because of things like torp wobble and latency) 4. Consider if we could translate Netrek to a console, like the Xbox 360 on Xbox Live. This would be some serious work because there are issues relating to input and communication which, at first look, are not compatible with XBox capabilities. However, there is a substantial market there for potential new gamers, and it may be worth tapping in to. Something to think about. For Windows development, I would suggest moving to C#. The reasons are thus: 1. .NET is the future of programming for the Windows platform. 2. C# is very easy to pick up if you have done much programming in C++ 3. It is very easy to develop in C#, MUCH less error prone than C++. 3. The development environment for it is mature now with all the tools you'll need. 4. C# is portable to other platforms using Mono 5. The development tools for C# are free from Microsoft on Windows, and free for Mono on the Unixes. 6. If we do elect to make an Xbox 360 version, C#, vis-?-vis the XNA Game Studio, allows simultaneous development for Xbox and Windows with essentially no code changes. XNA Game Studio Express may be found here: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx You'll need Visual C# Express first (even if you have Visual Studio 2005), which you can get here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/download/ I would be more than happy to talk with anyone on IRC or here about issues with C# and instruct those who have not yet had an opportunity to learn it. As someone who spent 10 years doing professional C and C++ development for Linux and Windows, I can confidently say that moving to C# (or adding it to your repertoire) is something you will not regret. Oh, and P.S., I am willing to lead this effort on the Windows side of things. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of William Balcerski Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:42 AM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low cost > steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. The > wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet points > with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan > of any sort. > The wiki is a reference, not intended to be a todo list. > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, add > a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it and > you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have > what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have > professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even though > we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. > I fail to see why we need yet another forum when we have 2 active mailing lists, 1 code commit mailing list, 1 dead mailing list, IRC, rec.games.netrek, and the forums at playnetrek.org. > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by which > the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be > readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during their > development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and > decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and docs > in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's all > in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their > jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the > forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) uses it. And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco anyone? :P). Perhaps I should lay out the state of netrek development. There are 4 "active" developers working on code, besides akb who is working on the web site. There are also some people who contribute once every few months but I wouldn't call them active. Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one else is up to speed on Mac development. Quozl, Karthik, and myself work on server development - we use IRC to pass ideas/code back and forth. In my experience, rarely have I needed email to discuss the code, as the guru (aka Quozl) is around frequently. I also work on the Window client, I work alone because no one else is up to speed on Windows development. We have ample infrastructure for communicating. We have mechanisms for task assignments (server has several TODO lists such as PROJECTS and BUGS). I have another TODO list for the client. More developers are welcome. The barrier to joining development is low (server) to moderate (client). People on IRC are around to answer any questions to help developers. I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will it be you? ;) > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of > potential players? > We have paid advertising (thanks Joe), we have a high google ranking (thanks Joe again), we have a list of ideas: http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas Any other suggestions on what we should be doing? Bill _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From chronosws at comcast.net Sat Apr 7 14:00:31 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 12:00:31 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows Development In-Reply-To: <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070402172337.GE17476@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> Message-ID: <000d01c77947$04156b60$0c404220$@net> Also, what is the current anonymous CVS access for sources for Netrek XP 2006? I find the web access on the SourceForge site, but all of the information on the Wiki does not seem to pertain to the Netrek XP variant. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of ChronosWS Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:22 AM To: 'Netrek Development Mailing List' Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows Development I'll be on the IRC channel. I'd like to discuss how to move the Windows client (and by proxy other clients) forward. In brief though, these are the things I think we should do, in the order I'd recommend doing them. 1. Create a Main Menu/Title screen, with access to options, etc. 2. Integrate the external tools (configuration, cambot, tutorial) into the main game exe, accessible from the main menu 3. Ensure that the UI conforms to Windows standards. Namely, that the main game windows have normal controls (close, minimize) and responds properly to them. 4. Integrate the metaserver UI into the game UI as the first screen you hit when you start, rather than a separate window which pops up. 5. Examine the use of keyboard input on the login screen. For example, ESC should be used to quit the game (or bring up a 'Really Quit?' box) and a more standard username/password UI should be implemented. I believe these items will go a long ways towards making the game feel more like a cohesive product than a scattering of applications and poorly-behaving windows apps. Later on I'd start to tackle some of the more drastic changes: 1. Scrap the UI code, at least for Windows. Not only is it messy, but it's not flexible enough to allow the proper use of modern UI elements and design. Enable more significant 'themeing' capabilities. 2. Revamp the graphics system to use a mechanism more suited to modern day graphics expectations that would allow us to significantly up-rate the graphics in the future. Probably something 3D. 3. Update the network protocol (along with the server side) to allow event-based network updates. Along with this would be client-side extrapolation of movement for ships based on the last known speed/heading, which would lead to MUCH smoother graphics. (this is non-trivial though because of things like torp wobble and latency) 4. Consider if we could translate Netrek to a console, like the Xbox 360 on Xbox Live. This would be some serious work because there are issues relating to input and communication which, at first look, are not compatible with XBox capabilities. However, there is a substantial market there for potential new gamers, and it may be worth tapping in to. Something to think about. For Windows development, I would suggest moving to C#. The reasons are thus: 1. .NET is the future of programming for the Windows platform. 2. C# is very easy to pick up if you have done much programming in C++ 3. It is very easy to develop in C#, MUCH less error prone than C++. 3. The development environment for it is mature now with all the tools you'll need. 4. C# is portable to other platforms using Mono 5. The development tools for C# are free from Microsoft on Windows, and free for Mono on the Unixes. 6. If we do elect to make an Xbox 360 version, C#, vis-?-vis the XNA Game Studio, allows simultaneous development for Xbox and Windows with essentially no code changes. XNA Game Studio Express may be found here: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx You'll need Visual C# Express first (even if you have Visual Studio 2005), which you can get here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/download/ I would be more than happy to talk with anyone on IRC or here about issues with C# and instruct those who have not yet had an opportunity to learn it. As someone who spent 10 years doing professional C and C++ development for Linux and Windows, I can confidently say that moving to C# (or adding it to your repertoire) is something you will not regret. Oh, and P.S., I am willing to lead this effort on the Windows side of things. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of William Balcerski Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:42 AM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low cost > steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. The > wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet points > with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan > of any sort. > The wiki is a reference, not intended to be a todo list. > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, add > a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it and > you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have > what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have > professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even though > we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. > I fail to see why we need yet another forum when we have 2 active mailing lists, 1 code commit mailing list, 1 dead mailing list, IRC, rec.games.netrek, and the forums at playnetrek.org. > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by which > the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be > readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during their > development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and > decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and docs > in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's all > in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their > jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the > forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) uses it. And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco anyone? :P). Perhaps I should lay out the state of netrek development. There are 4 "active" developers working on code, besides akb who is working on the web site. There are also some people who contribute once every few months but I wouldn't call them active. Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one else is up to speed on Mac development. Quozl, Karthik, and myself work on server development - we use IRC to pass ideas/code back and forth. In my experience, rarely have I needed email to discuss the code, as the guru (aka Quozl) is around frequently. I also work on the Window client, I work alone because no one else is up to speed on Windows development. We have ample infrastructure for communicating. We have mechanisms for task assignments (server has several TODO lists such as PROJECTS and BUGS). I have another TODO list for the client. More developers are welcome. The barrier to joining development is low (server) to moderate (client). People on IRC are around to answer any questions to help developers. I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will it be you? ;) > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of > potential players? > We have paid advertising (thanks Joe), we have a high google ranking (thanks Joe again), we have a list of ideas: http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas Any other suggestions on what we should be doing? Bill _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From netrek at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 22:51:17 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 23:51:17 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <0q8xdacr82.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> Message-ID: On 4/7/07, William Balcerski wrote: > Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to > a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). Website? Zach From netrek at gmail.com Sat Apr 7 22:55:15 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 23:55:15 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows Development In-Reply-To: <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> Message-ID: Sounds cool. What is your name? Zach On 4/7/07, ChronosWS wrote: > I'll be on the IRC channel. I'd like to discuss how to move the Windows > client (and by proxy other clients) forward. In brief though, these are the > things I think we should do, in the order I'd recommend doing them. > > 1. Create a Main Menu/Title screen, with access to options, etc. > 2. Integrate the external tools (configuration, cambot, tutorial) into the > main game exe, accessible from the main menu > 3. Ensure that the UI conforms to Windows standards. Namely, that the main > game windows have normal controls (close, minimize) and responds properly to > them. > 4. Integrate the metaserver UI into the game UI as the first screen you hit > when you start, rather than a separate window which pops up. > 5. Examine the use of keyboard input on the login screen. For example, ESC > should be used to quit the game (or bring up a 'Really Quit?' box) and a > more standard username/password UI should be implemented. > > I believe these items will go a long ways towards making the game feel more > like a cohesive product than a scattering of applications and > poorly-behaving windows apps. Later on I'd start to tackle some of the more > drastic changes: > > 1. Scrap the UI code, at least for Windows. Not only is it messy, but it's > not flexible enough to allow the proper use of modern UI elements and > design. Enable more significant 'themeing' capabilities. > 2. Revamp the graphics system to use a mechanism more suited to modern day > graphics expectations that would allow us to significantly up-rate the > graphics in the future. Probably something 3D. > 3. Update the network protocol (along with the server side) to allow > event-based network updates. Along with this would be client-side > extrapolation of movement for ships based on the last known speed/heading, > which would lead to MUCH smoother graphics. (this is non-trivial though > because of things like torp wobble and latency) > 4. Consider if we could translate Netrek to a console, like the Xbox 360 on > Xbox Live. This would be some serious work because there are issues > relating to input and communication which, at first look, are not compatible > with XBox capabilities. However, there is a substantial market there for > potential new gamers, and it may be worth tapping in to. Something to think > about. > > For Windows development, I would suggest moving to C#. The reasons are > thus: > 1. .NET is the future of programming for the Windows platform. > 2. C# is very easy to pick up if you have done much programming in C++ > 3. It is very easy to develop in C#, MUCH less error prone than C++. > 3. The development environment for it is mature now with all the tools > you'll need. > 4. C# is portable to other platforms using Mono > 5. The development tools for C# are free from Microsoft on Windows, and free > for Mono on the Unixes. > 6. If we do elect to make an Xbox 360 version, C#, vis-?-vis the XNA Game > Studio, allows simultaneous development for Xbox and Windows with > essentially no code changes. > > XNA Game Studio Express may be found here: > > http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx > > You'll need Visual C# Express first (even if you have Visual Studio 2005), > which you can get here: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/download/ > > I would be more than happy to talk with anyone on IRC or here about issues > with C# and instruct those who have not yet had an opportunity to learn it. > As someone who spent 10 years doing professional C and C++ development for > Linux and Windows, I can confidently say that moving to C# (or adding it to > your repertoire) is something you will not regret. > > Oh, and P.S., I am willing to lead this effort on the Windows side of > things. > > -----Original Message----- > From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org > [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of William Balcerski > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:42 AM > To: Netrek Development Mailing List > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject > > On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > > > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low > cost > > steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. > The > > wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet > points > > with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan > > of any sort. > > > The wiki is a reference, not intended to be a todo list. > > > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, > add > > a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it > and > > you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have > > what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have > > professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even > though > > we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. > > > I fail to see why we need yet another forum when we have 2 active mailing > lists, 1 code commit mailing list, 1 dead mailing list, IRC, > rec.games.netrek, and the forums at playnetrek.org. > > > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by > which > > the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be > > readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during > their > > development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and > > decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and > docs > > in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's > all > > in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their > > jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the > > forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) > > > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel > Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) uses it. > And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco anyone? > :P). > > Perhaps I should lay out the state of netrek development. There are 4 > "active" developers working on code, besides akb who is working on the web > site. There are also some people who contribute once every few months but > I wouldn't call them active. Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to > a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). > > One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one > else is up to speed on Mac development. > Quozl, Karthik, and myself work on server development - we use IRC to pass > ideas/code back and forth. In my experience, rarely have I needed email > to discuss the code, as the guru (aka Quozl) is around frequently. > I also work on the Window client, I work alone because no one else is up > to speed on Windows development. > > We have ample infrastructure for communicating. We have mechanisms for > task assignments (server has several TODO lists such as PROJECTS and > BUGS). I have another TODO list for the client. More developers are > welcome. The barrier to joining development is low (server) to moderate > (client). People on IRC are around to answer any questions to help > developers. I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will > it be you? ;) > > > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of > > potential players? > > > We have paid advertising (thanks Joe), we have a high google ranking > (thanks Joe again), we have a list of ideas: > http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas > Any other suggestions on what we should be doing? > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From chronosws at comcast.net Sat Apr 7 23:32:28 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:32:28 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows Development In-Reply-To: References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> Message-ID: <001401c77996$eb1fe5e0$c15fb1a0$@net> Oh, I'm Cliff :) -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:55 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Windows Development Sounds cool. What is your name? Zach On 4/7/07, ChronosWS wrote: > I'll be on the IRC channel. I'd like to discuss how to move the Windows > client (and by proxy other clients) forward. In brief though, these are the > things I think we should do, in the order I'd recommend doing them. > > 1. Create a Main Menu/Title screen, with access to options, etc. > 2. Integrate the external tools (configuration, cambot, tutorial) into the > main game exe, accessible from the main menu > 3. Ensure that the UI conforms to Windows standards. Namely, that the main > game windows have normal controls (close, minimize) and responds properly to > them. > 4. Integrate the metaserver UI into the game UI as the first screen you hit > when you start, rather than a separate window which pops up. > 5. Examine the use of keyboard input on the login screen. For example, ESC > should be used to quit the game (or bring up a 'Really Quit?' box) and a > more standard username/password UI should be implemented. > > I believe these items will go a long ways towards making the game feel more > like a cohesive product than a scattering of applications and > poorly-behaving windows apps. Later on I'd start to tackle some of the more > drastic changes: > > 1. Scrap the UI code, at least for Windows. Not only is it messy, but it's > not flexible enough to allow the proper use of modern UI elements and > design. Enable more significant 'themeing' capabilities. > 2. Revamp the graphics system to use a mechanism more suited to modern day > graphics expectations that would allow us to significantly up-rate the > graphics in the future. Probably something 3D. > 3. Update the network protocol (along with the server side) to allow > event-based network updates. Along with this would be client-side > extrapolation of movement for ships based on the last known speed/heading, > which would lead to MUCH smoother graphics. (this is non-trivial though > because of things like torp wobble and latency) > 4. Consider if we could translate Netrek to a console, like the Xbox 360 on > Xbox Live. This would be some serious work because there are issues > relating to input and communication which, at first look, are not compatible > with XBox capabilities. However, there is a substantial market there for > potential new gamers, and it may be worth tapping in to. Something to think > about. > > For Windows development, I would suggest moving to C#. The reasons are > thus: > 1. .NET is the future of programming for the Windows platform. > 2. C# is very easy to pick up if you have done much programming in C++ > 3. It is very easy to develop in C#, MUCH less error prone than C++. > 3. The development environment for it is mature now with all the tools > you'll need. > 4. C# is portable to other platforms using Mono > 5. The development tools for C# are free from Microsoft on Windows, and free > for Mono on the Unixes. > 6. If we do elect to make an Xbox 360 version, C#, vis-?-vis the XNA Game > Studio, allows simultaneous development for Xbox and Windows with > essentially no code changes. > > XNA Game Studio Express may be found here: > > http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/xna/aa937795.aspx > > You'll need Visual C# Express first (even if you have Visual Studio 2005), > which you can get here: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/download/ > > I would be more than happy to talk with anyone on IRC or here about issues > with C# and instruct those who have not yet had an opportunity to learn it. > As someone who spent 10 years doing professional C and C++ development for > Linux and Windows, I can confidently say that moving to C# (or adding it to > your repertoire) is something you will not regret. > > Oh, and P.S., I am willing to lead this effort on the Windows side of > things. > > -----Original Message----- > From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org > [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of William Balcerski > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:42 AM > To: Netrek Development Mailing List > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Set a fitting subject > > On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > > > I'm not a big fan of over-organization, but there are common-sense, low > cost > > steps which can be taken to facilitate a cohesive development strategy. > The > > wiki is a joke, honestly, as it's really just a collection of bullet > points > > with no one having bothered to distill or synthesize the ideas into a plan > > of any sort. > > > The wiki is a reference, not intended to be a todo list. > > > If the group is really too lazy to bother to log into a forum (you know, > add > > a bookmark to your browser, it will remember who you are, just click it > and > > you are logged in) then may I humbly suggest that the group may not have > > what it takes to really reinvigorate the game to the level which you have > > professed to desire. It's a serious task which is proposed, and even > though > > we are part-time developers on it does not mean we should be lazy about > > doing what is needed to pursue that goal in earnest. > > > I fail to see why we need yet another forum when we have 2 active mailing > lists, 1 code commit mailing list, 1 dead mailing list, IRC, > rec.games.netrek, and the forums at playnetrek.org. > > > My goal here is to provide a means for organization and a mechanism by > which > > the leader(s) of it can communicate the actual plan and have that plan be > > readily available to all developers who will be referring to it during > their > > development process. Having a single point of access for discussion and > > decisions means there is no need to know about mailing lists, wikis and > docs > > in source control as separate potential locations of information - it's > all > > in one place, easily found, easily searched, and if people are doing their > > jobs, mostly up to date (and if the conversations are included in the > > forums, then even out-of-date information can be corrected by review.) > > > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel > Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) uses it. > And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco anyone? > :P). > > Perhaps I should lay out the state of netrek development. There are 4 > "active" developers working on code, besides akb who is working on the web > site. There are also some people who contribute once every few months but > I wouldn't call them active. Oh and I forgot the guy who ported COW to > a Nokia, but that was only in the last week :). > > One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one > else is up to speed on Mac development. > Quozl, Karthik, and myself work on server development - we use IRC to pass > ideas/code back and forth. In my experience, rarely have I needed email > to discuss the code, as the guru (aka Quozl) is around frequently. > I also work on the Window client, I work alone because no one else is up > to speed on Windows development. > > We have ample infrastructure for communicating. We have mechanisms for > task assignments (server has several TODO lists such as PROJECTS and > BUGS). I have another TODO list for the client. More developers are > welcome. The barrier to joining development is low (server) to moderate > (client). People on IRC are around to answer any questions to help > developers. I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will > it be you? ;) > > > How far are you willing to go to bring this game to that huge pool of > > potential players? > > > We have paid advertising (thanks Joe), we have a high google ranking > (thanks Joe again), we have a list of ideas: > http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas > Any other suggestions on what we should be doing? > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From regrado at web.de Sun Apr 8 05:46:49 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:46:49 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Trimming replies In-Reply-To: <001401c77996$eb1fe5e0$c15fb1a0$@net> References: <007701c77582$472b8060$d5828120$@net> <20070403033251.GC14898@us.netrek.org> <008901c775a2$9b0ab370$d1201a50$@net> <20070406125627.GB9087@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000001c7785d$d9573050$8c0590f0$@net> <20070407002840.GA8578@us.netrek.org> <000701c778af$3e31ced0$ba956c70$@net> <000c01c77939$3bec30e0$b3c492a0$@net> Message-ID: <20070408104649.GA23350@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Sat 7.Apr'07 at 23:55:15 -0400 -= > Sounds cool. What is your name? > > Zach [ 175 quoted unrelated and unreferred lines deleted ] =- ChronosWS wrote on Sat 7.Apr'07 at 21:32:28 -0700 -= > Oh, I'm Cliff :) [ 210 quoted unrelated and unreferred lines deleted ] Zach, Cliff, can you _PLEASE_ trim your replies down to only the relevant parts?! netrek-dev already has an archive, no need to multiply the whole history with each eMail, especially when you don't refer to it in your reply. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Apr 8 05:54:45 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:54:45 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] its just the beginnins In-Reply-To: References: <20070406153649.GC18521@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070408105445.GB23350@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Turner-Crowe wrote on Fri 6.Apr'07 at 22:49:52 +0000 -= > I was just wondering if anyone remembers me? im the guy who > started going on about making a new server with a bundle of new > features on it. Of course I remember you, but do you remember me!!!??? I told you several times to look at the Paradise server. (I guess you don't read each thread ;) Get the Paradise server code, start the server, get the Paradise client code, start the client, connect, try. > It's taken me until now to start talking and I have no idea why. > prehaps just a bit shy :) Hum, have I been dreaming, I've seen posting of you before this?! Just not in response to my questions to you about Paradise. :( > i must warn anyone who hasnt seen it, the bundle of new features > i thought up are put in a pretty huge Notepad Document. I'll > post it if you want?? No, don't, Joe has forwarded them already. Please give me/ us feedback about your Paradise experience, how much it fits your ideas. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sun Apr 8 06:29:41 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 13:29:41 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070408112941.GC23350@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Karthik Arumugham wrote on Mon 2.Apr'07 at 17:24:56 -0400 -= > {...} at the expense of removing key elements of skill AND > strategy. Many people forget that what seems like simple skill > in fact leads into strategic play. Reading your whole post I assure you, _I_ don't want to take away those key elements, and I'm against doing this by providing more info available to the team/ player than already is there/ allowed. _BUT_ this is not what _I_ (and others) were/ are after. I want only info and functionality, which is already there, to be easier accessible. Maybe we should record down on wiki different ideas. I'll try to edit some pages over the (remaining) holidays. What some people (you? I don't know) forget is that all that skill and love for the game requires some patience with the state the game is in now (or was before some newbie-help ideas have popped up and even been implemented recently). In the old days that was no problem, people had fewer or no choices. Now they have, and they have less patience therefore. So the game must be enjoyable faster. (again, I don't mean by changing the key game elements, which we would have to define once to be sure not to break them) > On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:55 AM, Rado S wrote: > > No. I don't feel "better" than newbies because I can cripple a > ship properly rather than kill it. I do feel more accomplished, > but when I was learning the skill I *enoyed* learning it. We're talking about 2 different things here. I don't want to (nor even could I) remove this: whatever help we might give newbies, they'll still have to spend _their_ time to get the basics and begin to love it. > And it's strategically important to hide how much damage your > base has from the other team. So it does imbalance the game. > I've brought this skill up in particular because showing enemy > damage has been tossed around; an idea that I absolutely abhor. I'm against this, too. But there are changes that do not affect the game play with regard to the enemy. > I would think that the type of people to play an arcane game > like Netrek would enjoy learning such skills. It's just the interface that is arcane, the game mechanic itself is everlasting. It's obvious we need to figure out what kind of skills are desired/ required to be learned the hard way (learning by doing) and which can be lifted to reduce the threshold for people to stay. Interpolating/ judging/ guessing info which is _not_ available is one to preserve. Getting faster access (by better interface) to already granted info is something that won't break the game, or am I mistaken? I know, some individuals have said _any_ change will divert from the "currently achieved ideal". This means even access to info that is given to the team should stay complicated, requiring for example ... - to press extra keys for generally available info (galactic army count) - team-talk to convey own army carriers or teammate's ship status. We must draw a line here. Even if currently netrek were perfect (which I don't agree with), for attraction reasons we have to step down from those ideals, for a while at least, to get more in and many of those to stay long enough to once enjoy this "ideal" game. > There are plenty of harder ones to learn. People have said this before: others might be harder to master and fall in love for life-time, but they are easier to get hooked up. With netrek it's the other way around: hard to get into, easy to stay addicted after the initial phase has passed. > Should we have all picks called ++ automatically so that the > game doesn't require SC bombers to learn how to call picks? No. Besides, when there are to carriers, it would be hard to tell. ;) > Should we light up a cloaker for a quarter-second when hit by > torps to make a plock easier? That'll make it easier to learn > how to plock cloakers with torps! > There is much skill-assistance that I am not against. I can imagine this on a tutorial server, not for real play. Generally, on 1 side we need the real deal, and on the other the tutorial with almost everything allowed that is not for a real game, so people understand where the desired skills lie. > Phaser max-distance circles if someone wants to add them? Fine by > me. We already report phaser damage when you hit a ship. Why not > change the phaser color based on how far away the enemy was, and > thus how much damage you inflicted? That wouldn't be so bad, and > it illustrates the point that phasers do more damage closer in > These things I list about are skill-assistance. They do not > remove learned higher-level skill, nor important strategy, from > the game. They simply help a new player learn faster without > significantly changing game play. Heheh, that's ok with _you_, but I can imagine some idealists that wouldn't want to see that either in real play. Significance is subjective as long as we don't have a clear definition. > The key is to help them part of the way, such that they know > what they're trying to learn, rather than being thrust into a > confusing game with no real goals. At least we agree on this abstract direction. :) > The problem is that the game is very complex, and simple things > like figuring out how to send messages are far more daunting > than they should be. Why don't we concentrate efforts on that > instead of trying to fix what's really not broken by removing > elements of strategy and skill? ... I'll let you know when I've done something to show you. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From narcis at luky.nl Sun Apr 8 10:14:34 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:14:34 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Really should set a fitting subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > There is a single point of access for discussion, it's the IRC channel > Quozl mentioned. Every active developer (except the mactrek guy) > uses it. > And he would have benefitted from hanging out there (RSA fiasco > anyone? > :P). Actually he did several times, but when he is awake, you are deep asleep. hence he loves the mailing list :-) and benefits most from other people reading his code, like Karthik did. > One of the devs (Narcis) does Mac client only - he works alone, no one > else is up to speed on Mac development. Unfortunately, i'd love a hand and an extra pair of eyes now and then :-) > I would be thrilled to have another Windows developer. Will > it be you? ;) probably not :-) who is managing COW btw? i am gaining experience in wrapping C-code and might be able to create a native (non-X Windows) version. regards Chris From narcis at luky.nl Sun Apr 8 10:18:26 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 17:18:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Core - GUI seperation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Just a thought, but how difficult would it be to separate the COW core code from the GUI code? maybe by wrapping it in kind of wrapper class / C-file. Windows, XBox, Mac clients could simply write a subclass/delegate/wrapper for their platform but benefit from the changes in the core. regards Chris From chronosws at comcast.net Sun Apr 8 10:26:48 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 08:26:48 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Core - GUI seperation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301c779f2$5384ff20$fa8efd60$@net> This is, to my knowledge, already the case as the Windows clients wouldn't exist without such a separation. If it needs to be cleaned up due to there being nasty #ifdefs, we should do that as part of any restructuring done moving forward. I am currently converting the NetrekXP code to C#, and part of this process will (eventually) be proper separation of concerns where such separation is broken. There is a version of Mono for the Mac (http://www.mono-project.com/Mono:OSX) if you decide to use any code changes I make directly. I'd be happy to discuss any issues you have specifically relating to GUI separation as well. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Narcis Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:18 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Core - GUI seperation Hi, Just a thought, but how difficult would it be to separate the COW core code from the GUI code? maybe by wrapping it in kind of wrapper class / C-file. Windows, XBox, Mac clients could simply write a subclass/delegate/wrapper for their platform but benefit from the changes in the core. regards Chris _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Apr 8 15:34:58 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 13:34:58 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo In-Reply-To: References: <20070406204748.GA3788@carlos-desktop> Message-ID: <20070408203458.GB176@carlos-desktop> Well, Quozl is taking care of the source revision control, but I don't think the keys should be under revision control. They should be under some backup scheme, but changes to the official keyring should be done by one central clearinghouse, namely, the person or committee that's wearing the KEYGOD hat. Key requests on or off should be sent to clientkeys at clientkeys.netrek.org and evaluated one by one. --Carlos V. From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 8 17:49:08 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:49:08 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver darcs repo In-Reply-To: <20070408203458.GB176@carlos-desktop> References: <20070406204748.GA3788@carlos-desktop> <20070408203458.GB176@carlos-desktop> Message-ID: <20070408224908.GA27439@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 01:34:58PM -0700, Carlos Y. Villalpando wrote: > Well, Quozl is taking care of the source revision control, but I don't > think the keys should be under revision control. It is really up to the person wearing KEYGOD hat. If I were wearing it, which I don't plan to do, I would be using revision control to supplement my record-keeping, and provide a public simplified view of the policy decisions. I'm not suggesting you do, Carlos, I'm merely saying that's what I'd do. I use darcs for continuum etc/ tree, and for meta 1 configuration tree, but I don't see any good reason for making them available for public view. If the original poster is trying to say they'd like more visibility into the decision-making process of KEYGOD, I wish they'd come out and say that rather than suggest a specific implementation. I'm happy with the visibility. The key list is entirely visible. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Mon Apr 9 08:35:05 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:35:05 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek organisation (all resource owners please read) Message-ID: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> This goes _at least_ to all resource owners, other opinions of course welcome, too. Known to me (from SF): Dave, James (Quozl), Kurt, Bob, Carlos. Maybe Sven (as domain owner). James once said: > The infrastructure owners basically respond to noise level, kind > of like a government without representation. I used to listen to > the INL council, but it dried up. That I like to change: direction based on reason, not noise. My (as of so many before and next to me) goals causing those reasons: - primarily, short-term: produce new player base. - mid-term: produce clue, friendly + fairness atmosphere. - long-term: league quality, self-reproducing player base. The balanced basic game should _not_ change, but some aspects (of the game and organisation around it) _should_ change in favour of those goals, since the times and conditions around have changed. Changes can mean better or worse. An even slightly changed game will produce its own new balance if necessary, no need to stick with old concepts about balance when nobody/ not enough like(s) to play by them anymore. Even if it might mean worse for the moment and the game does not behave _identically_ as it used to 15y ago, once the critical player base is there, forking won't hurt anymore as much as now, and then everybody could have their personal favourite again. But until then, ... take the pain until the worst is over. Support is easier to get rolling and focus when the direction is clear, making it easier for by-standers to follow the lead (or oppose) it. If they don't know where it goes or how it works, they rather sit and wait (or worse just complain noisily from last row). With little time at hands for so many of us, some (like me) like to have some affirmation that efforts invested aren't wasted because somewhere up in the chain it's blocked by intention or stuck by negligence. On the other hand, if the whole fairness system (blessing) is not going to be supported anymore anyhow and everybody is free to connect with any self-made client, then please say so, and forget about the rest. Fairness can't be without rules and _active_ control. And that's something every game needs to be fun. =- James Quick wrote on Sat 7.Apr'07 at 10:36:41 +1000 -= > Supported: what does that mean? If it means I'll agree with > everything the governer says, no. If it means I'll do whatever > the governer says, no. If it means I'll help manage > infrastructure the governer needs, yes. (I prefer to call it "directors" rather than governor, be it a group or single person. The actual role/ title depends on the functionality supported by the community, but anyways) What if the "director" decides some feature to be in/ out for netrek to which you (owner) disagree, but the director nevertheless wants to release blessed clients and a reference server for people to join and see what the latest directed standard is? Would you ... - deny blessing for those clients? - still grant blessing for those not in line with the standard? - deny running such a server on your sponsored machine? - penalize (or even censor) it on the meta-server(s) (or other resources like www) to push your preference? - (still, if at all) grant favoured position on metas (www)? > Enforced: what does that mean? If it means I'll block an IP > address just because the governer says, no. I'd have to > understand the reasons and accept them. If it means I won't try > to circumvent a block placed on me by a governer, no. None of what you listed. "Enforcing" just with regard to the blessed clients, which are blessed only by the standard directed by the directors, see above. Banning for non-official server is as always up to the admins running them. I don't mind servers and clients straying away from the "official standard", but I want to have some _well supported/ pushed_ reference servers and clients to attract players, and the people to rely on those as standard (and not complain about cheating). Of course those directors, too, will listen to people outside of the body (i.e. community) and possibly even get inspired by servers "ahead of the standard" (maybe incorporate them just because of pure popularity). But hopefully decisions will be made and implemented faster with a handful (3-5 people) deciding rather than waiting for some noise level of the whole crowd to reach the pain limit of one or the other resource owner before things change, and then be accepted as part of the game without "cheating" shouters. If it's in, it's in, deal with it: upgrade. Life means change, and with it survival of the fittest. This applies to the game itself in the game world, as well as the players with a therefore necessarily changing game. If practice shows a decision is bad, then (ideally) the director has enough insight to correct it. Still, it requires _consequent_ application of blessing control, so that at all times there is at least 1 accepted working standard for all, no trespassers! To make this less noisy about producing keys (blessed binaries) back and forth, 2 versions could be valid at any given time: the last accepted standard and the new probation standard, so that when a new version fails, just the keys are dropped and everyone falls back to the previous version. > > What shall it be? > > An interesting question. But you can't rely on my answer alone, I > do not represent anyone but myself, and then only half the time. Ok then, this goes to all infra-structure providers: I see these duties for directors of each type of netrek standard: - define standard (per type, at least Bronco, Paradise). (that's the only thing they _must_ do themselves, the "work" resulting from it can be delegated) - ensure blessed (complying) binaries distribution, meaning: - control that only approved code is blessed for each type it's supposed to work with! (or check the source when some complaint comes in) - separate source from binary to make above control possible: people other than maintainers produce binaries. If not directors themselves, then trusted delegates. (not 100% safe, but still better, involves more active eyes and therefore more collective consciousness + acceptance and trust) - run reference servers and ensure that only standard approved blessed clients can connect. - Push the different resource areas: www content, marketing, metas- + key-admin. Or assign people in charge (sub-directors). (Or those might be assigned independently by the owners directly) If the owners are willing to fill the role of directors, then go ahead and do. Otherwise the questions remain: - will you support it? - who if not you should do it? Installation and replacment ideas per Message-ID: <20070401155739.GC13991 at sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 10:24:42 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 08:24:42 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> I have created an SVN source tree (don't complain to me about the source control type, I know and like SVN, don't know darcs yet and don't like CVS) for the C# version of the Windows client at svn://redhorizon.info. You can acquire read-only access using the anonymous login, no password. This client is to be a ground up rewrite based on a snapshot of the Netrek XP 2006 code (I decided after reviewing the existing client codebase that it would be too much trouble to do a straight port.) Current activity is centered around the packet/networking code and the base UI layer. The goals of the project are: 1. Compatibility with current Netrek client functionality and existing servers, as supported by Netrek XP 2006. 2. Improvements in UI usability, consistency with Windows UI standards. 3. Well-organized and easily maintainable and extensible code. I know essentially no one else on the list is doing C# development, but if you care to take a gander, make observations and constructive comments, I would certainly welcome them. - Cliff From ahn at orion.netrek.org Mon Apr 9 11:02:47 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 12:02:47 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> Message-ID: <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> If you are doing a clean-room implementation of a new Netrek client, the recommendations I have, which are strong ones, are to 1) publish your source under a real open source license, such as GPL or BSD, and your documentation under a real open document license; and, 2) properly attribute the basis of your work. Good luck, and welcome to the list. From netrek at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 13:41:16 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:41:16 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 4/9/07, Dave Ahn wrote: > If you are doing a clean-room implementation of a new Netrek client, the > recommendations I have, which are strong ones, are to 1) publish your > source under a real open source license, such as GPL or BSD, and your > documentation under a real open document license; and, 2) properly > attribute the basis of your work. > > Good luck, and welcome to the list. I thought if a client is written from scratch then it is under no prior license restrictions. They can use whatever license they want right? Cliff plans on using the BSD license I think. Zach From mark at mark.mielke.cc Mon Apr 9 15:03:37 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:03:37 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 02:41:16PM -0400, Zach wrote: > On 4/9/07, Dave Ahn wrote: > > If you are doing a clean-room implementation of a new Netrek client, the > > recommendations I have, which are strong ones, are to 1) publish your > > source under a real open source license, such as GPL or BSD, and your > > documentation under a real open document license; and, 2) properly > > attribute the basis of your work. > > Good luck, and welcome to the list. > I thought if a client is written from scratch then it is under no > prior license restrictions. They can use whatever license they want > right? Cliff plans on using the BSD license I think. Writing from scratch is an unusal description for a protocol that I do not believe to be well documented. :-) I suggest that Dave is speaking about offering credit to the original authors of any works that are used as a reference for re-implementation. Even if not legally required, it is a gesture of goodwill that would avoid people being upset, such as Trent on a similar issue. In terms of legality, it is grey. If I could prove in a court of law that your code was originally mine, it doesn't matter if you change the names of a few variables, or changing the indentation. This came up with the recent SCO claims to UNIX, and therefore Linux. In a true clean-room implementation, the coders would preferably have never seen the code they are re-implementing. If I can prove that my coders have never even looked at the software, than any similarities could be more easily written off as coincidence, or common programmer methodologies or patterns. For Netrek, I doubt that you could write a Netrek client without using another implementation as a reference. It might be re-architected, but the content will be the same. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From netrek at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 15:59:04 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:59:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: On 4/9/07, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > Writing from scratch is an unusal description for a protocol that I do > not believe to be well documented. :-) > > I suggest that Dave is speaking about offering credit to the original > authors of any works that are used as a reference for re-implementation. > Even if not legally required, it is a gesture of goodwill that would > avoid people being upset, such as Trent on a similar issue. > > In terms of legality, it is grey. If I could prove in a court of law > that your code was originally mine, it doesn't matter if you change > the names of a few variables, or changing the indentation. This came > up with the recent SCO claims to UNIX, and therefore Linux. In a true > clean-room implementation, the coders would preferably have never seen > the code they are re-implementing. If I can prove that my coders have > never even looked at the software, than any similarities could be more > easily written off as coincidence, or common programmer methodologies > or patterns. > > For Netrek, I doubt that you could write a Netrek client without using > another implementation as a reference. It might be re-architected, but > the content will be the same. I see. Thanks mark. Maybe we can have "Write netrek client in clean room" contest to attract wider netrek attention from the global developers community :) Zach From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 20:25:17 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 18:25:17 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> I was unclear when I made my statement. By 'clean' I meant the code was being rewritten from scratch. I am using the Netrek XP 2006 v1.2 codebase as a reference for the protocol and behaviors, but not using the code. The new code will be released under BSD with proper attribution. Sorry for the confusion. Appropriate files will be checked into source control shortly. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 1:59 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client On 4/9/07, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > Writing from scratch is an unusal description for a protocol that I do > not believe to be well documented. :-) > > I suggest that Dave is speaking about offering credit to the original > authors of any works that are used as a reference for re-implementation. > Even if not legally required, it is a gesture of goodwill that would > avoid people being upset, such as Trent on a similar issue. > > In terms of legality, it is grey. If I could prove in a court of law > that your code was originally mine, it doesn't matter if you change > the names of a few variables, or changing the indentation. This came > up with the recent SCO claims to UNIX, and therefore Linux. In a true > clean-room implementation, the coders would preferably have never seen > the code they are re-implementing. If I can prove that my coders have > never even looked at the software, than any similarities could be more > easily written off as coincidence, or common programmer methodologies > or patterns. > > For Netrek, I doubt that you could write a Netrek client without using > another implementation as a reference. It might be re-architected, but > the content will be the same. I see. Thanks mark. Maybe we can have "Write netrek client in clean room" contest to attract wider netrek attention from the global developers community :) Zach _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Mon Apr 9 21:10:04 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > I was unclear when I made my statement. By 'clean' I meant the code was > being rewritten from scratch. I am using the Netrek XP 2006 v1.2 codebase > as a reference for the protocol and behaviors, but not using the code. The > new code will be released under BSD with proper attribution. Sorry for the > confusion. Appropriate files will be checked into source control shortly. The copyright holders of the code you are using as a reference as you write "new" code could claim your code is a derived work. If there is any similarity, they can say that is evidence that you copied from them, and since you had their original in hand as you wrote it, they would have a very good case. This is the point of a clean room re-implementation. Never having seen the original code is a very good argument that you didn't copy it. There was recently a big to-do about a Linux broadcom wireless driver being plagerized to make a freebsd driver. The argument that once the cut-and-pasted code from the Linux driver was "removed" it would be an original BSD licensed work free of the GPL is utter BS. When you cut-and-paste someone else's work into yours, it's a dervied work. Change the variable names and it's still a derived work. Go through the code line by line and _change_ it so it looks different, and it's still a derived work. From mark at mark.mielke.cc Mon Apr 9 21:22:18 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:22:18 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> Message-ID: <20070410022218.GA4021@mark.mielke.cc> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 06:25:17PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > I was unclear when I made my statement. By 'clean' I meant the code was > being rewritten from scratch. I am using the Netrek XP 2006 v1.2 codebase > as a reference for the protocol and behaviors, but not using the code. The > new code will be released under BSD with proper attribution. Sorry for the > confusion. Appropriate files will be checked into source control shortly. If you want true clean-room with legal right to set the license, you should use a middle man. One person to document the protocol, and a second person to implement based *only* upon the documentation. Otherwise, failure to provide attribution and respect the original license is either rude or not legal. At the company I work, they've chosen to specifically segregate the employees who work on the Linux kernel, from the people who work on proprietary drivers or software. This sort of arm's length requirement is precisely to ensure legality of the situation. You can't promise anybody that having looked at a specific section of code, you will write completely unique code. And why should you have to? Some software patterns *do* apply to certain problem domains. But the only way you can show this to be a coincidence, is with a visible distance between the original code and the replacement code. Otherwise, it is a derivative. Derived works cannot change the license of the code that was used or changed from the original. It may seem pedantic to you - but these silly little rules are the only thing that makes licenses or copyrights valuable in the first place. No offense intended, and I don't like restrictive licensing. I do, however, believe that they are important to uphold. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 21:22:06 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 19:22:06 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> Message-ID: <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> That is true. However, the copyright holders will be required to go after ALL infringing derivative works if they decided to come after me in this case, as copyright is only upheld (in the US) if it is equally enforced (patents, on the other hand, may be selectively enforced.) Further, the code I am writing is substantially different in architecture. What may be similar could be some of the algorithms used but which I have not had a chance to evaluate. I consider the license of this code to be of little importance to me as no one has ever gained profit from it, shown interest in doing so, or made plans to do so. When there is no money involved, there is little incentive for people to throw a fit. The worst that could happen is that someone forces me to change the license to the GPL. Makes no difference to me. The only reason I am not GPL-ing it is because GPL is too restrictive - there may be bits of my code which someone DOES find commercially viable, and they will be welcome to use it and modify it, as long as I don't have to give up my license to my own code in the process. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Trent Piepho Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:10 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > I was unclear when I made my statement. By 'clean' I meant the code was > being rewritten from scratch. I am using the Netrek XP 2006 v1.2 codebase > as a reference for the protocol and behaviors, but not using the code. The > new code will be released under BSD with proper attribution. Sorry for the > confusion. Appropriate files will be checked into source control shortly. The copyright holders of the code you are using as a reference as you write "new" code could claim your code is a derived work. If there is any similarity, they can say that is evidence that you copied from them, and since you had their original in hand as you wrote it, they would have a very good case. This is the point of a clean room re-implementation. Never having seen the original code is a very good argument that you didn't copy it. There was recently a big to-do about a Linux broadcom wireless driver being plagerized to make a freebsd driver. The argument that once the cut-and-pasted code from the Linux driver was "removed" it would be an original BSD licensed work free of the GPL is utter BS. When you cut-and-paste someone else's work into yours, it's a dervied work. Change the variable names and it's still a derived work. Go through the code line by line and _change_ it so it looks different, and it's still a derived work. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From mark at mark.mielke.cc Mon Apr 9 21:36:19 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 22:36:19 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> Message-ID: <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 07:22:06PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > That is true. However, the copyright holders will be required to go after > ALL infringing derivative works if they decided to come after me in this > case, as copyright is only upheld (in the US) if it is equally enforced > (patents, on the other hand, may be selectively enforced.) This attitude, if truly held, is heavily frowned upon. I frown upon it. It is disrespectful. > Further, the > code I am writing is substantially different in architecture. What may be > similar could be some of the algorithms used but which I have not had a > chance to evaluate. In the end, you will not be able to provide any sort of guarantee that 100% of the code was uniquely inspired. Therefore, you cannot guarantee that ANY of the code was uniquely inspired. > I consider the license of this code to be of little importance to me as no > one has ever gained profit from it, shown interest in doing so, or made > plans to do so. When there is no money involved, there is little incentive > for people to throw a fit. It is not for you to consider. > The worst that could happen is that someone > forces me to change the license to the GPL. No. The worst that can happen is that people accept your way of thinking, and even the GPL cannot be enforced. > Makes no difference to me. It should. > The > only reason I am not GPL-ing it is because GPL is too restrictive - there > may be bits of my code which someone DOES find commercially viable, and they > will be welcome to use it and modify it, as long as I don't have to give up > my license to my own code in the process. If you care about licensing to the point of declaring one license more restrictive than another, you should also care about the implications of deriving your work from somebody else's work, with no clean-room strategies in place, and then stamping your own license on the result. I would prefer if you took the noble route. Do a true clean-room implementation. Ensure that the protocol is fully documented - and design your implementation from this documentation. This is the sort of contribution that would be highly respected, and valuable. Instead, it appears that you are cutting corners, and in the process, ignoring ethics and evading legality. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From darius at dons.net.au Mon Apr 9 21:47:14 2007 From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:47:14 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Windows C# client In-Reply-To: References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> Message-ID: <200704101247.23102.darius@dons.net.au> On Tuesday 10 April 2007 12:10, Trent Piepho wrote: > There was recently a big to-do about a Linux broadcom wireless driver being > plagerized to make a freebsd driver. The argument that once the It was OpenBSD actually. The to-do was mostly Theo being Theo and going nuclear in public :( -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070410/2f437e2a/attachment.pgp From darius at dons.net.au Mon Apr 9 21:50:42 2007 From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:50:42 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> Message-ID: <200704101250.43914.darius@dons.net.au> On Tuesday 10 April 2007 12:22, ChronosWS wrote: > That is true. However, the copyright holders will be required to go after > ALL infringing derivative works if they decided to come after me in this > case, as copyright is only upheld (in the US) if it is equally enforced > (patents, on the other hand, may be selectively enforced.) Further, the > code I am writing is substantially different in architecture. What may be > similar could be some of the algorithms used but which I have not had a > chance to evaluate. I think you're missing the point a little.. Most of this clean room stuff is to make it so provable that you haven't soiled your mind with someone elses code that noone will bother suing you on a pretext to get you to settle. It's not so much if you think you can win or lose but more about how long you can afford to pay lawyers to represent you :( That said I would say the likelyhood of a problem is incredibly low :) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070410/f56e5ef4/attachment.pgp From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 22:04:12 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:04:12 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> I never claimed to be doing a clean-room implementation. I only ever claimed to be rewriting the code from scratch, and that is what I am doing. As for why I am not worried about the licensing, perhaps it would be instructive for the group to actually READ the license from the codebase which I clearly stated I was using as a reference. My selection of a BSD-style license is compatible for the restrictions placed by the license, which I have reproduced below for those who do not have a copy handy. At no time have corners been cut, laws broken, or others rights disparaged. I presume (and hope) this particular thread is over. :) License follows: NETREK XP LICENSE It's really simple. Permission is granted similar to the copyright notices from Chris Guthrie, Kevin Smith and Scott Silvey. * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its * documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided * that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that * copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting * documentation. No representations are made about the suitability of this * software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or * implied warranty. With one restriction. You may not re-license this code under the GNU General Public License or even the Lesser GPL(LGPL) licenses, or any other viral license which requires the forced release of source code as a condition for binary release. CREDITS Various people over the years have contributed to Netrek, many of their names have been forgotten over the years. It's impossible to name them all here, but I shall try. NetrekXP was derived from COW which lists these individuals as contributing: Chris Guthrie, Ed James, Scott Silvey, and Kevin Smith, Tedd Hadley, Andy McFadden, Eric Mehlhaff, J. Mark Noworolski, Nick Trown, Lars Bernhardsson, Sam Shen, Rick Weinstein, Jeff Nelson, Jeff Waller, Robert Kenney, Steve Sheldon, Jonathan Shekter, Dave Gosselin, Heiko Wengler, Neil Cook, Kurt Siegl and many others. (They forgot Kevin Powell, Nathan Doss, Michael Kantner) Special thanks should be given to Jonathan Shekter for doing the original Windows port of COW-lite. Further thanks should go to Shawn Collenburg for adapting the COW-lite changes to COW. Extra Special Thanks should go to Rony Muliana for the Rabbit Ear bitmaps! They RULE! Special thanks for the getname.c ideas that came from Greg Chung. Many ideas adapted from COW-lite came from Kevin Powell and Jeff Nelson. Many of the bitmaps were taken from Paradise version of the Netrek client. I am not sure who to credit for these, but Michael Kellen's name has come up in past discussions. That probably also means Michael McGrath, Brandon Gillepsie and others helped, possibly. Joe Rumsey should be credited, as I'm sure he did something useful at some point. :) Trent Piepho is given thanks for pointing out some major bugs, giving some feedback on the Observer filter(which needs Server support and doesn't seem to work, but ohwell) and probably for even contributing some code that nobody knows about. ORIGINAL COPYRIGHT NOTICES /* Copyright 1989 Kevin P. Smith Scott Silvey Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies. */ /* Copyright (c) 1986 Chris Guthrie * * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its * documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided * that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that * copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting * documentation. No representations are made about the suitability of this * software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or * implied warranty. * * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1989 * Kevin P. Smith Scott Silvey * * ditto. * * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1993 * * As above. Use at your own risk. * * COW (BRM) authors (including but not limitted to: Kevin Powell Nick Trown * Jeff Nelson Kurt Siegl) * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1994 * * As above. * * Hockey Lines added to COW by Nathan Doss Michael Kantner * * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1998 * As above. * * Netrek 1999 * Steve Sheldon (sheldon at visi.com) * * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2002 * * As above. * * Netrek XP Mod * Stas Pirogov (keyos at keyos.org) * * ----------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2006 * * As above. * * Netrek XP * Bill Balcerski * From mark at mark.mielke.cc Mon Apr 9 22:10:29 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:10:29 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> References: <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> Message-ID: <20070410031029.GA4827@mark.mielke.cc> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 08:04:12PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > License follows: > NETREK XP LICENSE > It's really simple. Permission is granted similar to the copyright notices > from Chris Guthrie, Kevin Smith and Scott Silvey. > * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its > * documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided > * that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that > * copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting > * documentation. Will you be complying to the requirement that "the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation"? > * No representations are made about the suitability of this > * software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or > * implied warranty. > > With one restriction. > > You may not re-license this code under the GNU General Public License or > even the Lesser GPL(LGPL) licenses, or any other viral license which > requires the forced release of source code as a condition for binary release. Will you be retaining this restriction? The original complaint was that you might not be attributing your derived works appropriately. You agreed that you did not intend to. You claim that you can do this because you are "re-writing" the code. However, you have not provided any examples of arm's-length strategies that you will employ to guarantee that your software will be a re-write. You wave your hands over the significance of the license, claiming that the product has no monetary value, therefore the license need not be respected. You don't see why somebody else might be concerned? :-) Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Mon Apr 9 22:13:12 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > That is true. However, the copyright holders will be required to go after > ALL infringing derivative works if they decided to come after me in this > case, as copyright is only upheld (in the US) if it is equally enforced > (patents, on the other hand, may be selectively enforced.) Further, the That would be trademarks that must be enforced to be kept. There is no such requirement for copyrights. From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 22:19:41 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:19:41 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <20070410031029.GA4827@mark.mielke.cc> References: <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> <20070410031029.GA4827@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <002501c77b1f$14c86af0$3e5940d0$@net> Of course I will attribute my works, probably by copying Bill's attribution into my license.txt. And yes, I will be maintaining the anti-viral restriction. If there are other attributions of note which actually make it over to my code in some fashion, they too will be noted - and if someone else thinks they see an unattributed block they can notify me and it will be attributed. I wave my hands because it was clear to me from the first mail that a mountain was being constructed from the lair of a small burrowing creature, and that lengthy emails would ensue which, in the end, would result in no change. Such a result has come about, though perhaps you and Trent (and miscellaneous lurkers) will feel better knowing my aims are not nefarious :) -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of mark at mark.mielke.cc Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:10 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 08:04:12PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > License follows: > NETREK XP LICENSE > It's really simple. Permission is granted similar to the copyright notices > from Chris Guthrie, Kevin Smith and Scott Silvey. > * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its > * documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided > * that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that > * copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting > * documentation. Will you be complying to the requirement that "the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation"? > * No representations are made about the suitability of this > * software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or > * implied warranty. > > With one restriction. > > You may not re-license this code under the GNU General Public License or > even the Lesser GPL(LGPL) licenses, or any other viral license which > requires the forced release of source code as a condition for binary release. Will you be retaining this restriction? The original complaint was that you might not be attributing your derived works appropriately. You agreed that you did not intend to. You claim that you can do this because you are "re-writing" the code. However, you have not provided any examples of arm's-length strategies that you will employ to guarantee that your software will be a re-write. You wave your hands over the significance of the license, claiming that the product has no monetary value, therefore the license need not be respected. You don't see why somebody else might be concerned? :-) Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 22:26:01 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:26:01 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: References: <20070409133505.GA25175@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> Message-ID: <002601c77b1f$f724dfa0$e56e9ee0$@net> I sit corrected. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Trent Piepho Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:13 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses On Mon, 9 Apr 2007, ChronosWS wrote: > That is true. However, the copyright holders will be required to go after > ALL infringing derivative works if they decided to come after me in this > case, as copyright is only upheld (in the US) if it is equally enforced > (patents, on the other hand, may be selectively enforced.) Further, the That would be trademarks that must be enforced to be kept. There is no such requirement for copyrights. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From chronosws at comcast.net Mon Apr 9 22:47:30 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 20:47:30 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <002501c77b1f$14c86af0$3e5940d0$@net> References: <000a01c77abb$32ab2b20$98018160$@net> <20070409160247.GA10349@orion.netrek.org> <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> <20070410031029.GA4827@mark.mielke.cc> <002501c77b1f$14c86af0$3e5940d0$@net> Message-ID: <002701c77b22$f7400160$e5c00420$@net> The copyright.txt has been checked in to the root of the source tree. Enjoy. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of ChronosWS Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 8:20 PM To: 'Netrek Development Mailing List' Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses Of course I will attribute my works, probably by copying Bill's attribution into my license.txt. And yes, I will be maintaining the anti-viral restriction. If there are other attributions of note which actually make it over to my code in some fashion, they too will be noted - and if someone else thinks they see an unattributed block they can notify me and it will be attributed. I wave my hands because it was clear to me from the first mail that a mountain was being constructed from the lair of a small burrowing creature, and that lengthy emails would ensue which, in the end, would result in no change. Such a result has come about, though perhaps you and Trent (and miscellaneous lurkers) will feel better knowing my aims are not nefarious :) From ahn at orion.netrek.org Mon Apr 9 22:50:19 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 23:50:19 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Code modification and licenses In-Reply-To: <002501c77b1f$14c86af0$3e5940d0$@net> References: <20070409200337.GA935@mark.mielke.cc> <000e01c77b0f$1923c910$4b6b5b30$@net> <000f01c77b17$090cda50$1b268ef0$@net> <20070410023619.GA4164@mark.mielke.cc> <001e01c77b1c$eaaf0d70$c00d2850$@net> <20070410031029.GA4827@mark.mielke.cc> <002501c77b1f$14c86af0$3e5940d0$@net> Message-ID: <20070410035019.GA11171@orion.netrek.org> On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 08:19:41PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote: > I wave my hands because it was clear to me from the first mail that a > mountain was being constructed from the lair of a small burrowing creature, The first email was a reasonable suggestion which, given your apparent familiarity with the history of Netrek development, should not give you any pause. The fact that you are "waving your hands" and writing somewhat antagonistic responses to this list, however, does give me pause. From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 00:51:46 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:51:46 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas Message-ID: Suggestions for netrek by Zachary Uram (Yoda) Rev. 04/12/07 * Allow status display (fuel, hull, shields) to be abstracted from the main client window such that it can be 1) a seperate window 2) a Windows system tray icon which would have 3 color coded lines or integrate this functionality into the Windows title bar of the netrek application if the user hasn't disabled it. This could allow for very nice large readouts. * Add more clock styles and make them easily selectable via netrekrc file. - neon colored display - different font face for the digital display - military hours display * Abstract the phaser damage message window into a status meter. - red for crippling phaser inflicted - yellow for medium damage inflicted - green for light damage inflicted * Provide button to automatically take one into an observer slot, assuming they are an active player, allow clicking it again automatically take them to a player slot of put them on a wait queue if it exists. * Provide easy intuitive way to record a game via GUI: - GUI can be inside the client application or abstracted out into a seperate utility - add universal type record button ("[=]") - add universal pause recording button ("[||]") - add universal stop recording button ("[o]") - use Windows standard dialog box for saving game to desired filename - add option to record game to a default filename such as: gamerec-$DATE-$SERVER - allow conversion into a standard video format such as AVI or MPEG * Sturgeon only mods: - Give planets defensive capabilities such as shooting Paradise style missiles at incoming ships - Add wormholes which would pop up randomly on the galaxy and transport one ship caught within a certain distance to a random spot on the galaxy - Add toxic planets, these would be select planets on greyed out planets (ie. the planets of the other 2 races besides the 2 races at war which no one has yet touched) - Add starbase upgrades dependent on KPH over time + enemy planets your team has taken: o stasis field which temporarily freezes an enemy ship o Death Star type powerful laser which can destroy armies on enemy worlds o time warp field which knocks an enemy ship backwards a given distance o beam armies onto non-SB team mates if SB is under attack and dying - Add Paradise style Jumpship which can carry a teammate's ship in it and can go as fast as an SC * Add voice communication such as TeamSpeak or IBM's TTS which is now open sourced. * Add GUI for configuring the buttonmap and keymap. * Add single key (a la F1) pop up complete help/tutoral application. * Allow RCDs and macros to be mapped to function keys such as: F2 for quit, F3 for announcing you carry armies, F4 for base ogg macro * Add dogfight tactical mode which could be toggled on/off by 1 button, in this mode the tactical screen would be greatly magnified as well as the ship graphics, this could allow for very richly detailed modern ships (could even use 3D models with textures applied and other OpenGL effects) and very exciting dogfigts. * Add alternate fire for phaser and torp. Some possible choices: o Alternate fire torp produces two parallel torp streams: | | each group of torps would be located on the far left and far right area of the ship respectively o Alternate fire phaser produces a rapid burst in quick succession of varying phaser strength such as short-long or long-short * Allow players to extract their lifetime stats for a given character from a given server and save this to a text or HTML file. * Add hockey bots so that you can have hockey game with bots and humans. - Allow bots to be given commands such as: o 'defend X' - defend player X o 'defend goal' - defend the net o 'assist X' - ogg the enemy player closest to X o 'recpass X' - receive a pass from player X o 'pass X' - pass to player X o 'faceoff' - take the faceoff and if won pass to closest teammate - Improved bot logic/AI would be needed. - Allow BB, CA, DD and SC ship types. - Make a widened rink (opens up game - European style hockey) an option - Shrink net width (more defensive style game) - Widen net width (more offensive style game) * Allow clue game rank to carry over from game to game. * Improve player statistics and presentation - Add more player stats (PWSTATS and LTDSTATS): - The code already exists in older netrek servers - Allow a player to be emailed their game stats after their client quits a pickup or clue game. - Make a pickup blog and a clue game blog (each server could have their own) o All stats from pickup and clue games could be automatically uploaded o Combine this with stats tracking and a player could login to the server's blog and automatically see all their game stats (like we already do for clue games) as well as their character lifetime stats for pickup and clue games - Add graphs to show percentage of time spent flying a given ship - Add graph to show lifetime DI or Stats (off+def+bomb) for a player - Add graph to show lifetime bombing, armies dooshes, offense or anything you want over time * Create an RSS feed per server in which players could subscribe - Email players when a server has a certain threshold of players such as TMODE or TMODE minus 1. - Web viewable list of all players logged in and their full hostnames and IP addresses. * Have metaserver be minimizable to the system tray: - Play a sound when t mode is reached on a defined list of server(s) - Mousing over the system tray icon will show: o green (t in progress) o yellow (t minus 1 to t minus 4) o red (4 players or less) Zach From karthik at karthik.com Thu Apr 12 01:02:28 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:02:28 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> On Apr 12, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Zach wrote: > * Abstract the phaser damage message window into a status meter. > - red for crippling phaser inflicted > - yellow for medium damage inflicted > - green for light damage inflicted I like this one. The color could vary continuously from pure red (100% damage inflicted) to pure green (0% damage inflicted.) This is a good example of a teaching tool that does NOT change the game mechanics. > * Have metaserver be minimizable to the system tray: > - Play a sound when t mode is reached on a defined list of server(s) > - Mousing over the system tray icon will show: > o green (t in progress) > o yellow (t minus 1 to t minus 4) > o red (4 players or less) I have thought about this one as well. Even better, it could act as a counter of how many people are ready to play their selection default game type. So, for example, it might alert if 10 people who've selected Bronco all have the meta window open. These 10 people might not otherwise play since they might not want to wait for a game, but if you alert them all at once a game may be likely to happen. From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 01:47:04 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 02:47:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > > I like this one. The color could vary continuously from pure red > (100% damage inflicted) to pure green (0% damage inflicted.) This is > a good example of a teaching tool that does NOT change the game > mechanics. Yeah this could be a a very non evasive non infoborg feature. > I have thought about this one as well. Even better, it could act as a > counter of how many people are ready to play their selection default > game type. So, for example, it might alert if 10 people who've > selected Bronco all have the meta window open. These 10 people might > not otherwise play since they might not want to wait for a game, but > if you alert them all at once a game may be likely to happen. Perhaps if a certain predefined threshold of players with metaservers open is reached they could all be emailed or even sent a message directly to their desktop. Setup a central zephyr server and let each metaserver come with a preconfigured zephyr client subscribed to instance "netrek-t" and we could have other instances for clue games and what not. :-P Zach From chronosws at comcast.net Thu Apr 12 15:49:44 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:49:44 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> Message-ID: <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> I would go with the idea of creating a task bar applet (or equivalent for the target OS.) You would configure this to say which kinds of games you were interested and potentially which servers you were interested in as well (in case you specifically want to use only a subset of the ones listed on the metaserver.) This information would be communicated to the metaserver at the time a metaserver refresh is made by the applet. The metaserver, in turn, would broadcast the number of players waiting for games matching each server to those who are listening (other applets, the metaserver application, etc.) When the applet sees that enough players were available to start tmode for a particular server, it would pop up a notification informing the user of such, which if clicked would launch the Netrek client. This would require the following code: 1. A Windows taskbar applet (or equivalent for other OSes) allowing the user to: a. See the current status of servers, just like the metaserver window. b. Allow the player to signal they want to play and specify: 1. Game type (Bronco, Sturgeon, etc.) 2. Specific server 3. Other fields as desired c. Broadcast the desire to the metaserver once per minute. d. Re-read the metaserver status every few seconds (15, 30?) d. When a particular server has enough players, pop a notification indicating 1. Server and game type 2. Number of interested players along with number of players in the game 3. Allowing the user to click the notification to start the client and connect to the game. 2. Modification to the Metaserver as follows: a. Maintain a list of players desired games b. Add a 'waiting' count to each server line indicating the number of players waiting for a game on that server c. Remove a player from the list if a refresh has not been received in the past 2 minutes. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:47 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas > I have thought about this one as well. Even better, it could act as a > counter of how many people are ready to play their selection default > game type. So, for example, it might alert if 10 people who've > selected Bronco all have the meta window open. These 10 people might > not otherwise play since they might not want to wait for a game, but > if you alert them all at once a game may be likely to happen. Perhaps if a certain predefined threshold of players with metaservers open is reached they could all be emailed or even sent a message directly to their desktop. Setup a central zephyr server and let each metaserver come with a preconfigured zephyr client subscribed to instance "netrek-t" and we could have other instances for clue games and what not. :-P Zach _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 18:02:38 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:02:38 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Trouble adding new gcc options in Vanilla Message-ID: Evening, I am trying to add some new compile flags to gcc via the CPP variable. First I tried editing system.mk and running autogen.sh and then configure but it is overwriting my changes. And CCP shows up as just the normal "gcc -E", so next I tried looking at configure.in but it doesn't seem to be directly set in there, yet it looks like configure.in is telling configure to overwrite my changes in system.mk thus they are not propagated to the Makefile. I also tried this same process using CPPFLAGS but same result. I asked Quozl but he didn't know. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 18:04:13 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:04:13 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, ChronosWS wrote: > I would go with the idea of creating a task bar applet (or equivalent for > the target OS.) You would configure this to say which kinds of games you > were interested and potentially which servers you were interested in as well > (in case you specifically want to use only a subset of the ones listed on > the metaserver.) This information would be communicated to the metaserver > at the time a metaserver refresh is made by the applet. The metaserver, in > turn, would broadcast the number of players waiting for games matching each > server to those who are listening (other applets, the metaserver > application, etc.) When the applet sees that enough players were available > to start tmode for a particular server, it would pop up a notification > informing the user of such, which if clicked would launch the Netrek client. > > This would require the following code: > > 1. A Windows taskbar applet (or equivalent for other OSes) allowing the user > to: > a. See the current status of servers, just like the metaserver > window. > b. Allow the player to signal they want to play and specify: > 1. Game type (Bronco, Sturgeon, etc.) > 2. Specific server > 3. Other fields as desired > c. Broadcast the desire to the metaserver once per minute. > d. Re-read the metaserver status every few seconds (15, 30?) > d. When a particular server has enough players, pop a notification > indicating > 1. Server and game type > 2. Number of interested players along with number of players > in the game > 3. Allowing the user to click the notification to start the > client and connect to the game. > > 2. Modification to the Metaserver as follows: > a. Maintain a list of players desired games > b. Add a 'waiting' count to each server line indicating the number > of players waiting for a game on that server > c. Remove a player from the list if a refresh has not been received > in the past 2 minutes. Yeah. Do you plan on adding this functionality to your new client? Zach From chronosws at comcast.net Thu Apr 12 18:37:33 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:37:33 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> Message-ID: <000401c77d5b$8b980440$a2c80cc0$@net> This could be either built in to a client or a separate add-on. I am in favor of making is a separate add-on, as then it could be configure to run any client when you connect. It also reduces the amount of memory consumed while waiting for a game. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:04 PM To: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas On 4/12/07, ChronosWS wrote: > I would go with the idea of creating a task bar applet (or equivalent for > the target OS.) You would configure this to say which kinds of games you > were interested and potentially which servers you were interested in as well > (in case you specifically want to use only a subset of the ones listed on > the metaserver.) This information would be communicated to the metaserver > at the time a metaserver refresh is made by the applet. The metaserver, in > turn, would broadcast the number of players waiting for games matching each > server to those who are listening (other applets, the metaserver > application, etc.) When the applet sees that enough players were available > to start tmode for a particular server, it would pop up a notification > informing the user of such, which if clicked would launch the Netrek client. > > This would require the following code: > > 1. A Windows taskbar applet (or equivalent for other OSes) allowing the user > to: > a. See the current status of servers, just like the metaserver > window. > b. Allow the player to signal they want to play and specify: > 1. Game type (Bronco, Sturgeon, etc.) > 2. Specific server > 3. Other fields as desired > c. Broadcast the desire to the metaserver once per minute. > d. Re-read the metaserver status every few seconds (15, 30?) > d. When a particular server has enough players, pop a notification > indicating > 1. Server and game type > 2. Number of interested players along with number of players > in the game > 3. Allowing the user to click the notification to start the > client and connect to the game. > > 2. Modification to the Metaserver as follows: > a. Maintain a list of players desired games > b. Add a 'waiting' count to each server line indicating the number > of players waiting for a game on that server > c. Remove a player from the list if a refresh has not been received > in the past 2 minutes. Yeah. Do you plan on adding this functionality to your new client? Zach _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Apr 12 18:50:36 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:50:36 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> Message-ID: <20070412235036.GB5916@us.netrek.org> I approve the design of the applet. The load on the metaservers would be minimal. I'd also like you to consider a change to the client vs metaserver protocol, that I have considered for some time. A sort of subscription mode, where the metaserver keeps a memory of clients that have requested updates, and sends updates to them that it receives from servers ... that is to say it will retransmit what it has already sent if the values have changed in anything bar information age. Clients would be forgotten by the metaserver once they haven't been heard from for five minutes. So clients would be expected to resubscribe every few minutes. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 19:20:15 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:20:15 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <000401c77d5b$8b980440$a2c80cc0$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <000401c77d5b$8b980440$a2c80cc0$@net> Message-ID: On 4/12/07, ChronosWS wrote: > This could be either built in to a client or a separate add-on. I am in > favor of making is a separate add-on, as then it could be configure to run > any client when you connect. It also reduces the amount of memory consumed > while waiting for a game. That's cool. Zach From narcis at luky.nl Fri Apr 13 03:16:00 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:16:00 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B7C5CC1-A6A2-47CC-9042-FA9E9DA59687@luky.nl> > * Allow status display (fuel, hull, shields) to be abstracted from > the main > client window such that it can be 1) a seperate window 2) a > Windows system > tray icon which would have 3 color coded lines or integrate this > functionality into the Windows title bar of the netrek > application if > the user hasn't disabled it. This could allow for very nice large > readouts. Or use widget/gadget/growl javascripting to achieve this. (alternative would be to make the windows client a fullscreen app, as we are basically talking about optimizing screen layout and available pixels.) > > * Abstract the phaser damage message window into a status meter. > - red for crippling phaser inflicted > - yellow for medium damage inflicted > - green for light damage inflicted But where to display? showing it as a symbol next to the target? briefly change the color of the targets shields? it does seem a little close to infoborg stuff, but i personally like it. > * Provide easy intuitive way to record a game via GUI: > - allow conversion into a standard video format such as AVI or MPEG MacTrek has a screenshot key, i've been thinking of a recorder that creates mov (hehe) files of the game window automatically upon keypress. but have not figured it out quite yet. seems like a usefull feature. initial hacks are shown in the MacTrek teaser movies, framerate is still an issue. > * Add voice communication such as TeamSpeak or IBM's TTS which is > now open > sourced. I like teamspeak, but how would you integrate the server? as part of the netrek server? this can easily choke the bandwith, and UDP is not reliable, thus the more you send the bigger the chance you miss some updates that you would like to receive, hence QoS would quickly become an issue. > * Add GUI for configuring the buttonmap and keymap. > * Allow RCDs and macros to be mapped to function keys such as: > F2 for quit, F3 for announcing you carry armies, F4 for base ogg > macro There is actually a client out there that does that :-) > * Add dogfight tactical mode which could be toggled on/off by 1 > button, in > this mode the tactical screen would be greatly magnified as well > as the > ship graphics, this could allow for very richly detailed modern > ships > (could even use 3D models with textures applied and other OpenGL > effects) > and very exciting dogfigts. MacTrek has a scaleable zoom (mouse wheel) which sort of does that, but i see more "excitement" in switching to isometric or 3D view for dogfights. (butt torping would become more difficult though :-) > > * Add alternate fire for phaser and torp. Some possible choices: > o Alternate fire torp produces two parallel torp streams: | | > each group of torps would be located on the far left and far right > area of the ship respectively > o Alternate fire phaser produces a rapid burst in quick > succession of > varying phaser strength such as short-long or long-short Very nice idea, sort of full spread thingy. > * Have metaserver be minimizable to the system tray: > - Play a sound when t mode is reached on a defined list of server(s) > - Mousing over the system tray icon will show: > o green (t in progress) > o yellow (t minus 1 to t minus 4) > o red (4 players or less) again, widget/gadget seems more suitable for this task > Zach great ideas Zach! cheers Chris From chronosws at comcast.net Fri Apr 13 10:23:07 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:23:07 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <7B7C5CC1-A6A2-47CC-9042-FA9E9DA59687@luky.nl> References: <7B7C5CC1-A6A2-47CC-9042-FA9E9DA59687@luky.nl> Message-ID: <000501c77ddf$a3b2ede0$eb18c9a0$@net> It's not scripting necessarily which is the answer to this, though a more powerful theme engine could be considered. I will be looking into something like this for the Netrek Unlimited client at a later time. However, if you go to fullscreen mode (or even if you don't) there may be some good way to put some of your ship data into overlays at the corners of the screen - this is how most games which have an active main game area deal with it. The trouble is that the ship status takes up relatively little area compared to the message and status text itself. Real screen area wins come by reducing that. Some of the text which is currently shown I consider optional. If it were me, the bits of text info I would show would be: 1. Team and personal messages mixed into a single stream 2. Condensed player listing, showing player number/team, kills, ship type, and name. The other windows (global chat, damage) and data (DI, rank) are not generally used to make decisions about how to play the game so could probably be safely removed as an option for the user. To the 3D option, I really don't see using 3D to any good effect except for... er... effects. Changing the perspective adds nothing to the game, in my opinion, and makes maneuvering and targeting less intuitive. Netrek is inherently 2D. Using 3D to achieve cool effects provided by todays video cards seems to make more sense. I don't have a problem with allowing players to have multiple weapons configurations like that. However I wonder if a good player would use it at all, and would it just make a newbie use more fuel than they might otherwise use? I think we've already discussed and come up with a solution for the Metaserver issue. We will be constructing a task tray applet, see previous emails. - Cliff -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Narcis Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 1:16 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas > This could allow for very nice large > readouts. Or use widget/gadget/growl javascripting to achieve this. (alternative would be to make the windows client a fullscreen app, as we are basically talking about optimizing screen layout and available pixels.) > * Add dogfight tactical mode which could be toggled on/off by 1 > button, in > this mode the tactical screen would be greatly magnified as well > as the > ship graphics, this could allow for very richly detailed modern > ships > (could even use 3D models with textures applied and other OpenGL > effects) > and very exciting dogfigts. MacTrek has a scaleable zoom (mouse wheel) which sort of does that, but i see more "excitement" in switching to isometric or 3D view for dogfights. (butt torping would become more difficult though :-) > > * Add alternate fire for phaser and torp. Some possible choices: > o Alternate fire torp produces two parallel torp streams: | | > each group of torps would be located on the far left and far right > area of the ship respectively > o Alternate fire phaser produces a rapid burst in quick > succession of > varying phaser strength such as short-long or long-short Very nice idea, sort of full spread thingy. > * Have metaserver be minimizable to the system tray: > - Play a sound when t mode is reached on a defined list of server(s) > - Mousing over the system tray icon will show: > o green (t in progress) > o yellow (t minus 1 to t minus 4) > o red (4 players or less) again, widget/gadget seems more suitable for this task > Zach great ideas Zach! cheers Chris _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From narcis at luky.nl Fri Apr 13 15:30:15 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 22:30:15 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39071A0D-8088-4842-AE51-3FCC4BEB06E7@luky.nl> > The > trouble is that the ship status takes up relatively little area > compared to > the message and status text itself. Real screen area wins come by > reducing > that. I experimented with printing it transparently through the gameview, but that never looked very good. text2voice is possible but anoying too, maybe if RCD's are turned into wav's (we could even do different accents for different races?) regards Chris From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 20:32:49 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:32:49 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] something to think about Message-ID: Was just told about this cool open source game, Descent: Freespace 2, really nice graphics, some cool UI features and great sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent:_FreeSpace Installers: MS Windows (Zipped .exe, 19 MB) (Doesn't need Java): http://www.fsoinstaller.com/files/installer/FreeSpaceOpenInstaller.zip MS Windows/Linux - *nix/Mac OS (.jar, 26 KB) (Requires Java 1.5): http://www.fsoinstaller.com/files/installer/java/FreeSpaceOpenInstaller.jar Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Apr 19 20:57:18 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:57:18 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] something to think about In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070420015718.GB6374@us.netrek.org> How is it relevant? Can we borrow any artwork or ideas without running afoul of licensing? -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 23:37:43 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:37:43 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] something to think about In-Reply-To: <20070420015718.GB6374@us.netrek.org> References: <20070420015718.GB6374@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 4/19/07, James Cameron wrote: > How is it relevant? Can we borrow any artwork or ideas without running > afoul of licensing? All I said was it was something to think about. Shows some possibilities - get some ideas. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Apr 20 08:02:24 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:02:24 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] something to think about In-Reply-To: References: <20070420015718.GB6374@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070420130224.GA25338@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Apr 20, 2007 at 12:37:43AM -0400, Zach wrote: > On 4/19/07, James Cameron wrote: > > How is it relevant? Can we borrow any artwork or ideas without running > > afoul of licensing? > > All I said was it was something to think about. Shows some > possibilities - get some ideas. I have. That's all I came up with. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 07:27:49 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 08:27:49 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 Message-ID: Just tried Paradise 2000 RC6 in Linux and it worked! Prior versions core dumped for me. Whatever you fixed Trent thanks :) Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Apr 22 17:31:37 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:31:37 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 08:27:49AM -0400, Zach wrote: > Just tried Paradise 2000 RC6 in Linux and it worked! Prior versions > core dumped for me. Whatever you fixed Trent thanks :) Zach, please try previous versions now that you have upgraded your Linux. I think it was a problem with your Linux. The prior versions worked fine for me. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sun Apr 22 23:03:34 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:03:34 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 4/22/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Zach, please try previous versions now that you have upgraded your > Linux. I think it was a problem with your Linux. The prior versions > worked fine for me. Ok will do. Zach From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Mon Apr 23 17:40:42 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:40:42 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message of "Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:31:37 +1000") References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> James Cameron writes: > Zach, please try previous versions now that you have upgraded your > Linux. I think it was a problem with your Linux. The prior versions > worked fine for me. I played both RC4 and RC5 when they were current and they worked just fine. One caveat: My desktop machine has eaten itself and I'm using a spare box I hacked together which has no sound configured; p2k segfaults out. I think it will die if the machine has no sound configured; I'm not sure if it needs the dev files to exist, OSS architecture present, or a configured driver. It might not be sound at all; that's just my suspicion. If I do a kernel with sound and a device driver while I'm still using this machine, then I'll check to see if that fixes things. From netrek at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 20:00:01 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:00:01 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On 4/23/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > I played both RC4 and RC5 when they were current and they worked > just fine. > > One caveat: My desktop machine has eaten itself > and I'm using a spare box I hacked together which has no sound > configured; p2k segfaults out. I think it will die if the machine > has no sound configured; I'm not sure if it needs the dev files > to exist, OSS architecture present, or a configured driver. It might > not be sound at all; that's just my suspicion. If I do a kernel with sound > and a device driver while I'm still using this machine, then I'll check > to see if that fixes things. I haven't had chance to test earlier versions again yet but my sound also was not working when I tried them. Zach From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Tue Apr 24 16:48:33 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > James Cameron writes: > > Zach, please try previous versions now that you have upgraded your > > Linux. I think it was a problem with your Linux. The prior versions > > worked fine for me. > > I played both RC4 and RC5 when they were current and they worked > just fine. > > One caveat: My desktop machine has eaten itself > and I'm using a spare box I hacked together which has no sound > configured; p2k segfaults out. I think it will die if the machine > has no sound configured; I'm not sure if it needs the dev files Sound shouldn't have any effect. Try deleting the sound server and see if it still seg faults. It is probably glibc compatibility problems. glibc doesn't support static linking, and I've had to go to great trouble to produce a static binary. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Apr 25 00:54:01 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:54:01 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On 4/24/07, Trent Piepho wrote: > > It is probably glibc compatibility problems. glibc doesn't support static > linking, and I've had to go to great trouble to produce a static binary. I have libc5 and libc6 is there a way I can tell one of the dynamically linked executables to use one of those instead of glibc? Static linking is not that unusual so why wouldn't glibc support i I wonder? Zach From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Wed Apr 25 17:42:41 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:42:41 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: (Trent Piepho's message of "Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <0q647kvzxa.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Zach, you have p2k working now, yes? What distro and version of glibc are you using? Trent Piepho writes: > It is probably glibc compatibility problems. glibc doesn't support static > linking, and I've had to go to great trouble to produce a static binary. Yeah, I remember the glic23 lossage, which hosed not just p2k but tons of other apps as well. So, I was mistaken, it's not a segfault. It's an illegal instruction. bressen at armidgeon:~$ strace netrek execve("/usr/local/bin/netrek", ["netrek"], [/* 20 vars */]) = 0 uname({sys="Linux", node="armidgeon", ...}) = 0 brk(0) = 0x8277000 brk(0x8298000) = 0x8298000 getrlimit(RLIMIT_STACK, {rlim_cur=8192*1024, rlim_max=RLIM_INFINITY}) = 0 setrlimit(RLIMIT_STACK, {rlim_cur=2044*1024, rlim_max=RLIM_INFINITY}) = 0 getpid() = 22113 rt_sigaction(SIGRTMIN, {0x8109ff0, [], 0}, NULL, 8) = 0 rt_sigaction(SIGRT_1, {0x810a070, [RTMIN], 0}, NULL, 8) = 0 rt_sigaction(SIGRT_2, {0x81099a0, [], 0}, NULL, 8) = 0 rt_sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, [RTMIN], NULL, 8) = 0 rt_sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, [RT_1], NULL, 8) = 0 _sysctl({{CTL_KERN, KERN_VERSION}, 2, 0xbffff78c, 30, (nil), 0}) = 0 --- SIGILL (Illegal instruction) @ 0 (0) --- +++ killed by SIGILL +++ Process 22113 detached bressen at armidgeon:~$ Could it be a CPU issue? Although an x86 box, it uses a VIA C3 (Ezra WinChip C5C core). System is Debian Etch, using packages glibc-2.3.6-2 and libc6 2.3.6.ds1-13 which provides /lib/libc-2.3.6.so From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Apr 25 18:15:09 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise 2000 In-Reply-To: <0q647kvzxa.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070422223137.GA3389@us.netrek.org> <0qy7kizpcl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <0q647kvzxa.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Trent Piepho writes: > > It is probably glibc compatibility problems. glibc doesn't support static > > linking, and I've had to go to great trouble to produce a static binary. > > > So, I was mistaken, it's not a segfault. It's an illegal instruction. > > > Could it be a CPU issue? > Although an x86 box, it uses a VIA C3 (Ezra WinChip C5C core). Could be that. I think I compile for 486 or better and C3 doesn't have cmov support. From netrek at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 21:37:50 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:37:50 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] anyone seen this? Message-ID: http://www.securiteam.com/securitynews/5ZP0215KUM.html Zach