From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 07:13:01 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:13:01 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>

 -c -o colors.o colors.c
In file included from netrek.h:11,
                 from colors.c:9:
distress.h:14: error: array type has incomplete element type
distress.h:15: error: array type has incomplete element type
make: *** [colors.o] Error 1

I looked in distress.h and it seems fine:

distress.h:14:
extern struct dmacro_list dist_defaults[];

distress.h:15
extern struct dmacro_list dist_prefered[];

Any idea how to fix this? I don't understand what is causing the
error. the struct definition is very straight forward.

Zach


From chronosws at comcast.net  Sat Aug  4 10:13:30 2007
From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:13:30 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>

dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
declarations which are generating the error.

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 5:13 AM
To: Netrek Development Mailing List
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error

 -c -o colors.o colors.c
In file included from netrek.h:11,
                 from colors.c:9:
distress.h:14: error: array type has incomplete element type
distress.h:15: error: array type has incomplete element type
make: *** [colors.o] Error 1

I looked in distress.h and it seems fine:

distress.h:14:
extern struct dmacro_list dist_defaults[];

distress.h:15
extern struct dmacro_list dist_prefered[];

Any idea how to fix this? I don't understand what is causing the
error. the struct definition is very straight forward.

Zach

_______________________________________________
netrek-dev mailing list
netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 16:31:24 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 17:31:24 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>

Oh ok. Thanks I will try that!

Zach

On 8/4/07, ChronosWS <chronosws at comcast.net> wrote:
> dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
> definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
> declarations which are generating the error.


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 20:31:10 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:31:10 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>

Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla? If not does
he has a repo where I could check out his sturgeon code and compile
it?

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 20:29:40 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 21:29:40 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to finally get the client compiled after fixing 10 compile errors :)

Zach

On 8/4/07, Zach <netrek at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh ok. Thanks I will try that!
>
> Zach
>
> On 8/4/07, ChronosWS <chronosws at comcast.net> wrote:
> > dmacro_list is not being defined.  Find out which header file has the
> > definition for that struct and make sure to include it prior to the extern
> > declarations which are generating the error.
>


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 23:19:37 2007
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 00:19:37 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla server
Message-ID: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
deal with this security hole, please do so.

On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being
put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First
pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation
by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a
shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More
servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due
to fear of spreading out the playerbase.
Bill


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Sun Aug  5 23:33:19 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 23:33:19 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
> deal with this security hole, please do so.

	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
	for yours.

	*shrug*.

> On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being
> put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First
> pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation
> by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a
> shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More
> servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due
> to fear of spreading out the playerbase.

	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, there was no external
	pressure to do so by anyone else.  His server was, if memory
	serves, hanging and he didn't have time to deal with it.

	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
	served no purpose.  He was then asked to shut down his 
	hockey server that was tcp only and sitting on the end of 
	a slow dsl line.  It served no purpose and attracted newbies
	that were confused by the server.  meeper is not a developer
	and had to have his hand held in compiling the server and
	getting it functional.

	Please get your facts straight.




							John


-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From chronosws at comcast.net  Mon Aug  6 00:20:45 2007
From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:20:45 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in
	Vanilla	server
In-Reply-To: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>

Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.  Nice.

Unfortunately, so long as you have to make your IP public and its static
your ports will remain under attack.  You could alter the server code so
that slots are not assigned until the player has authenticated, which is the
way it should be anyhow.  This can be defeated of course by the attacker
making the nodes actually perform a log in - I don't know how smart they
are, they may not be capable of this level of code.

Alternately, you could canvas the userlist of known servers or your past
connection logs for valid playing IPs and whitelist them with your firewall.
This might be a decent stopgap measure while you implement your security
fix.

-----Original Message-----
From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org
[mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of John R. Dennison
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 9:33 PM
To: Bill Balcerski
Cc: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
server

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come 
> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty 
> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass 
> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into 
> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands 
> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that 
> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen, 
> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while 
> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco 
> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock 
> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I 
> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on 
> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between 
> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to 
> deal with this security hole, please do so.

	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
	for yours.

	*shrug*.

> On another note, I am quite distressed at how much pressure is being 
> put on independent server operators to not run public servers.  First 
> pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of operation 
> by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.  I think it's a 
> shame we are losing developers due to this sort of thing.  More 
> servers and server operators should be encouraged, not discouraged due 
> to fear of spreading out the playerbase.

	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, there was no external
	pressure to do so by anyone else.  His server was, if memory
	serves, hanging and he didn't have time to deal with it.

	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
	served no purpose.  He was then asked to shut down his 
	hockey server that was tcp only and sitting on the end of 
	a slow dsl line.  It served no purpose and attracted newbies
	that were confused by the server.  meeper is not a developer
	and had to have his hand held in compiling the server and
	getting it functional.

	Please get your facts straight.




							John


--
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked
to be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt <sxem> trying to play
sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.



From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Mon Aug  6 00:27:26 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 01:27:26 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
 server
In-Reply-To: <20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>

John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
>   
>> Hi all.  Over the past few months, netrek servers I run have come
>> under a distributed denial of service attack that has been pretty
>> constant and insistent.  Initially the attacks started out as mass
>> flood connects from a few IPs, but after some measures were put into
>> place to prevent that, the attacks morphed into hundreds and thousands
>> of unique IPs connecting to the server in spaced out intervals so that
>> unique IPs occupy every slot.  The slots sit at the login screen,
>> preventing players from connecting.  This sort of attack, while
>> currently only directed at me (first at sturgeon, then at my bronco
>> server when I took sturgeon off the metaserver) can be used to knock
>> any netrek server out.  With so few servers and server operators, I
>> really think this needs to be addressed.  Quozl had put some things on
>> the todo list regarding this, namely some sort of handshake between
>> client and server, but this is really out of my league to implement.
>> So I am asking of the dev community, if you can contribute code to
>> deal with this security hole, please do so.
>>     
> 	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
> 	past few years by your behavior.  It is completely evident that
> 	this is personal; no other servers have been attacked except
> 	for yours.
>
> 	*shrug*.
>   
Whether he pissed people off or not - it seems rather rude (if not 
criminal) to smack his server around.

I would hope whoever was involved would find something more constructive 
and mature to do with their talent and time.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Mon Aug  6 00:31:36 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 00:31:36 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in
	Vanilla	server
In-Reply-To: <000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
Message-ID: <20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 10:20:45PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote:
> Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.  Nice.

	And for good reason.  Years of good reason.

> Alternately, you could canvas the userlist of known servers or your past
> connection logs for valid playing IPs and whitelist them with your firewall.
> This might be a decent stopgap measure while you implement your security
> fix.

	Better then nothing, but it will not work for anyone on a
	dynamic connection.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 01:50:00 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 02:50:00 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708052350wee9093fge3920f6c8781f325@mail.gmail.com>

How does 1 person get control of thousands of unique IP addresses? Did
they hack thousands of servers just so they could attack a game server
which hardly anyone plays and will garner then virtually no notoriety
(which many hackers seem to crave). A very disturbed person.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 06:51:59 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 21:51:59 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>

SourceControl in the development Wiki summarises available repositories,
as does the file REPOSITORIES in the netrek-server-vanilla sources, and
one of these repositories is:

http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/                  Bill Balcerski

On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:31:10PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla?

Bill will have to answer that.  There are no patches in that repository
that haven't been pulled into my repository.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 07:28:53 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:28:53 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:29:40PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> I was able to finally get the client compiled after fixing 10 compile
> errors :)

Publish your work!  Don't waste those 10 fixes.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 07:55:36 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:55:36 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708052350wee9093fge3920f6c8781f325@mail.gmail.com>
	<46B6B13E.9010608@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>

Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 12:19:37AM -0400, Bill Balcerski wrote:
> Quozl had put some things on the todo list regarding this, namely some
> sort of handshake between client and server, but this is really out of
> my league to implement.

The two items in PROJECTS are:

- avoid sending SP_PSTATUS for newly logged in slots until after
  successful authentication.  Prevents attack via username [because the
  username is not made visible to the other players].  Prevents
  pre-registration attacks.

- avoid placing ship in game until successful client verification.
  [currently client verification happens just after ship begins flight]

There is also the latent player registration feature that is not yet
ready.  It lacks scripting.  Same kind of thing as various web sites;
you register by providing your e-mail address, and a token is sent back
to that address that lets you in.  It could be trialled for clue games,
and would have potential benefit of not requiring login.  Speedy
reconnect in case of bust.

> First pulsar, then meeper, and now warped will all forced out of
> operation by complaints (or criminal behavior) from a vocal few.

This is nothing new.  I've had complaints or potentially criminal
behaviour from others on continuum.  The vocal few need to be ignored
sometimes.  At one stage I had to ask someone from caltech.edu to stop
logging in multiple times to get t-mode ... just to respond to some
really noisy vocal few who were making my life miserable with their
e-mails and in-game contacts.

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 11:33:19PM -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:
> 	Perhaps you shouldn't have pissed off so many people over the
> 	past few years by your behavior.

Agreed.

> It is completely evident that this is personal; no other servers have
> been attacked except for yours.

I'm not so sure.  Continuum has experienced a possible denial of service
attack in the past month or two, just that I haven't been as open about
it as Bill has.  Did some patching on it tonight.

> 	Umm, pulsar was shut down by it's admin, [...]

Agreed.

> 	meeper was asked to stop hosting useless bot servers that
> 	served no purpose.

Agreed.

On Sun, Aug 05, 2007 at 10:20:45PM -0700, ChronosWS wrote:
> Man asks for help, you lay into him, blaming him for the attacks.
> Nice.

More could be said, but I'm not sure it would help.  John is accurate
though ... Bill has contributed some great patches, for vulnerabilities
he discovered and made use of.  ;-)

> You could alter the server code so that slots are not assigned until
> the player has authenticated, which is the way it should be anyhow.

Yes, that's the essence of the registration system plus the two added
items at head of PROJECTS.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 01:27:26AM -0400, Mark Mielke wrote:
> Whether he pissed people off or not - it seems rather rude (if not 
> criminal) to smack his server around.

I can't speak for the criminal law in that country, but I imagine
there's something that can be done, if it can be traced.

On the other hand, running a vulnerable application is stupid, Cryo.
;-)

> I would hope whoever was involved would find something more constructive 
> and mature to do with their talent and time.

Like teasing in school, the only viable solution is to not respond.
This whole thread will just make it worse.

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:50:00AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> How does 1 person get control of thousands of unique IP addresses?

That is a trivial technical problem.  If you didn't believe it could be
done, you really need to get out more.  As a start, go read the
Wikipedia article on Botnets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From karthik at karthik.com  Mon Aug  6 11:48:02 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 12:48:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
	server
In-Reply-To: <20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<20070806053136.GF6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<000901c7d7e9$8b229640$a167c2c0$@net>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806043319.GE6015@mail.beanhq.com>
	<45ab86180708052119r7387845au3ec390f0f1f1b05e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806125536.GM24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <B324C16C-0235-46A3-9B87-A5AFB4E6780B@karthik.com>

On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:55 AM, James Cameron wrote:

> I'm not so sure.  Continuum has experienced a possible denial of  
> service
> attack in the past month or two, just that I haven't been as open  
> about
> it as Bill has.  Did some patching on it tonight.

I've experienced a few cases where there were 3 slots (my dup limit)  
sitting partially logged-in. In the couple cases where I saw an  
actual player come in from that IP, it turned out to be a MacTrek  
user. It seems a MacTrek client bug may be triggering occasional  
groups of dead slots. You may have been seeing this as well. (Ccing  
Chris Lukassen in case he doesn't see this on the list.)

I haven't seen anything else resembling a DoS on pickled, past the  
usual idiocy of people occasionally logging in several slots for  
whatever purpose and similar. Certainly nothing that was a sustained  
attack.


From kaut at ece.ualberta.ca  Mon Aug  6 15:11:19 2007
From: kaut at ece.ualberta.ca (Rob Kaut)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:11:19 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>


I can finally post to [netrek-dev] again, so reposting message from
several months back.

--

Hey all.

I finally have my server (paradise.homeunix.org) back up again after the
hardware failure. I managed to get UDP working as well during the
outage, so you should have a bit more stable of a connection than
before.

It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't working,
but I'm on it. I hope to have it working soon. Until then, it's at the
aforementioned address at the usual port.

Let me know if you have any problem(s) and I'll try to take a look into
it/them ASAP.

Until then, happy trekking. :)

Hobbes



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 18:01:09 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 09:01:09 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061408370.8897-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <20070806230109.GC4224@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:11:19PM -0600, Rob Kaut wrote:
> It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't working,
> but I'm on it.

Let me know if you have any questions about the protocol, or ways to
diagnose it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 18:08:32 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:08:32 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Sturgeon?
In-Reply-To: <20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708041831n5ee571c6rfcaaf6a973f0ed2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806115159.GH24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708061608n19402058y558aed2bece9f6ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/6/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> SourceControl in the development Wiki summarises available repositories,
> as does the file REPOSITORIES in the netrek-server-vanilla sources, and
> one of these repositories is:
>
> http://netrek.warped.us/public-server/                  Bill Balcerski

Cool.

> On Sat, Aug 04, 2007 at 09:31:10PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > Is Bill's sturgeon code now fully integrated into Vanilla?
>
> Bill will have to answer that.  There are no patches in that repository
> that haven't been pulled into my repository.

Ok.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 18:10:02 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:10:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/6/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Publish your work!  Don't waste those 10 fixes

Ok. Will be setting up my own updated repo soon I hope.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug  6 19:10:07 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:10:07 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] compile error
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708040513j5a8c4e4bh21c44ac446b53024@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7d6aa$049f4680$0dddd380$@net>
	<ecfa260c0708041431h3fc51807v5187533ed97a48cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<ecfa260c0708041829t56444654xc93632ef306b51b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070806122853.GK24650@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708061610q6874abd2l6f4d695ccc220bb5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070807001007.GF4224@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 07:10:02PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Ok. Will be setting up my own updated repo soon I hope.

Why?  Just do a diff now, review it, and post to netrek-dev.  After all,
what you are working on doesn't even have a repo, right?

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From kaut at ece.ualberta.ca  Mon Aug  6 20:01:36 2007
From: kaut at ece.ualberta.ca (Rob Kaut)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:01:36 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Server back up again.
In-Reply-To: <20070806230109.GC4224@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0708061859420.16497-100000@feynman.ece.ualberta.ca>


On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 02:11:19PM -0600, Rob Kaut wrote:
> > It doesn't appear on the metas yet because solicitation isn't
> > working, but I'm on it.
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about the protocol, or ways to
> diagnose it.
> 

Will do. I'll post a follow-up or drop by #netrek once I've had the
chance to work on it and have some idea of what's going on.

r



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug  7 08:28:33 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 23:28:33 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 09:20:01AM +0200, Niclas Fredriksson wrote:
> I have a suggestion for whoever's working on the server code. I'd like to 
> see a better countdown to timercide. Right now we get a message at the 30 
> minute mark and at the 15 minute mark (maybe it's a few more, I've been up 
> all night playing so I'm not very sharp right now).

I investigated.  The existing source code emits the messages every five
minutes.

> I'd like to see one 
> every minute from T-5m and then in the last minute I'd like to see it at 
> T-50s, T-40s, T-30s, T-20s, T-10s and T-(9-1)s (that is at every second 
> the last ten seconds). Like INL end game. I think that would make 
> timercides even more fun and intriguing.

I agree, and so I've made a change on continuum to support this, in that
a message will be emitted every minute for the last five minutes.

I wasn't able to easily do a ten second countdown, because the existing
source code is very definite about the surrender checking being done
every server minute.

Interesting side-effect in the existing code is that any pause to the
surrender results in whole minute delays.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 05:10:20PM +0200, Niclas Fredriksson wrote:
> Also it would be great if the "time" command on the non-INL server 
> could show seconds and not only minutes.

I've also added this.  Please try it out.  The possible messages you
will get include:

"The %s have %d minutes %d seconds left before they surrender."

"The %s have %d minutes left before they surrender."

"The %s will have %d minutes left, when players return"

"The %s will have %d minutes left, if they lose a planet"

There is a strong possibility of server crash due to inadequate testing.
Let me know if that happens.  The two types of crash will be either loss
of connection for all players at once, or loss of connection for one
player who does a TIME command.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From niclas at acc.umu.se  Tue Aug  7 10:43:50 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 17:43:50 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Clever suggestion
In-Reply-To: <20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070719134748.GA25236@us.netrek.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707191709430.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0707190916320.762@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070807132833.GA27805@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708071743030.15532@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:

> I've made a change on continuum to support this

Thanks, I'll check it out. Hopefully it will come to pickled sometime soon 
too.

-- Niclas


From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 23:13:13 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 00:13:13 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>

Only in brmh-2.4.0/: BRMH-2.4.0-CHANGELOG
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h brmh-2.4.0/data.h
410,411c
static char     *metaserver;
static int      metaport;
.
273,275c
extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war, warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt, messwi,
messwk, planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin, waitWin,
metaWin;
.
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h brmh-2.4.0/distress.h
96,103d
7c
#include "dmacro.h"
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: dmacro.h
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c
57c
W_Window                   qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: Makefile
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest brmh-2.4.0/Manifest
79,85d
16a
 \a.g.x_bitmaps
 \bitmaps.h
 \borg
 \clockbitmap.h
 \cursors.h
 \dynshipbitmaps.h
 \icon.h
 \ind_starbase
 \miscbitmaps.h
 \moobitmaps.h
 \oldbitmaps.h
 \puck
 \shieldbitmaps.h
 \shipbitmaps.h
.
8d
diff -e -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c
60c
static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.us.netrek.org";
.
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: netrek
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: randomize
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_0.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_1.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_2.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_3.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_4.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box.c


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug  9 01:04:12 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:04:12 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>

Err, yuck.  Use "-u" flag for diff.  Read the rest of the good patching
practice that I've referred you to before.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Software-Release-Practice-HOWTO/patching.html

And use a meaningful subject.  "diff" as a subject means "ignore my mail
I don't know what I'm doing."

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 02:22:44 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 03:22:44 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Err, yuck.  Use "-u" flag for diff.

Ok.

> And use a meaningful subject.  "diff" as a subject means "ignore my mail
> I don't know what I'm doing."

Sorry I thought since we already discussed it on list everyone knew
what the diff was I was sending.

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug  9 02:46:42 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:46:42 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 03:22:44AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Sorry I thought since we already discussed it on list everyone knew
> what the diff was I was sending.

Think of those who read the archives later, who are looking for, say, a
patch to fix compilation problems on BRMH.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 03:09:11 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 04:09:11 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] diff
In-Reply-To: <20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>
References: <ecfa260c0708082113q73b18fd2x76e0dc73735e1d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809060412.GA16686@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0708090022i5e569c37n67b0f512f8113da3@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070809074642.GA21016@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090109y2323e295l94307353a0fd7fca@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> Think of those who read the archives later, who are looking for, say, a
> patch to fix compilation problems on BRMH.

Ah ok.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 03:16:04 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 04:16:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>

Only in brmh-2.4.0/: BRMH-2.4.0-CHANGELOG
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h brmh-2.4.0/data.h
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/data.h      2000-02-17 00:48:05.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/data.h   2007-08-04 18:07:02.000000000 -0400
@@ -270,9 +270,7 @@

 extern struct rank ranks[NUMRANKS];

-extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war,
-                warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt,
messwi, messwk,
-                planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin,
waitWin, metaWin;
+extern W_Window messagew, w, mapw, statwin, baseWin, infow, iconWin,
tstatw, war, warnw, helpWin, teamWin[4], qwin, messwa, messwt, messwi,
messwk, planetw, rankw, playerw, optionWin, reviewWin, waitWin,
metaWin;
 #ifdef XTREKRC_HELP
 extern W_Window        defWin;
 #endif
@@ -407,8 +405,8 @@

 extern char    *defaults_file;

-extern char            *metaserver;
-extern int      metaport;
+static char            *metaserver;
+static int      metaport;

 extern char    *plist;
 extern int     list_needs_stats;
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h brmh-2.4.0/distress.h
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/distress.h  2000-01-13 14:56:55.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/distress.h       2007-08-04 17:51:10.000000000 -0400
@@ -4,7 +4,7 @@
  * distress.h
  */
 #include "copyright.h"
-
+#include "dmacro.h"

 #ifndef _in_distress_c_

@@ -93,12 +93,4 @@
    text is null terminated and the last thing in this distress
  */

-struct dmacro_list
-{
-    char c;
-    char *name;
-    char *macro;
-};
-
-
 #endif /* _distress_h_ */
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: dmacro.h
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c  2000-01-13 14:56:55.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/findslot.c       2007-08-04 17:54:50.000000000 -0400
@@ -54,7 +54,7 @@
 static int                in = 0;
 static int                toggle;

-static W_Window                   qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;
+W_Window                  qwin, countWin, motdButtonWin, waitIcon;

 static void
 destroyWait()
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: Makefile
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest brmh-2.4.0/Manifest
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/Manifest    2000-02-17 00:48:05.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/Manifest 2007-07-25 01:32:08.000000000 -0400
@@ -5,7 +5,6 @@
 INSTALL
 Imakefile
 MACRO.DOC
-Makefile
 Manifest
 Netrek.rules
 Netrek.tmpl
@@ -14,6 +13,20 @@
 Wlib.h
 bd.c
 bitmaps/
+ \a.g.x_bitmaps
+ \bitmaps.h
+ \borg
+ \clockbitmap.h
+ \cursors.h
+ \dynshipbitmaps.h
+ \icon.h
+ \ind_starbase
+ \miscbitmaps.h
+ \moobitmaps.h
+ \oldbitmaps.h
+ \puck
+ \shieldbitmaps.h
+ \shipbitmaps.h
 bitmaps.c
 bitmapstuff.h
 brmh-dashboard.c
@@ -76,13 +89,6 @@
 reserved.c
 rint.c
 rotate.c
-rsa/
-rsa_box.c@
-rsa_box_0.c@
-rsa_box_1.c@
-rsa_box_2.c@
-rsa_box_3.c@
-rsa_box_4.c@
 sintab.c
 smessage.c
 socket.c
diff -u -r /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c
--- /tmp/brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c        2000-01-13 14:56:56.000000000 -0500
+++ brmh-2.4.0/metaserver.c     2007-08-04 18:06:38.000000000 -0400
@@ -57,7 +57,7 @@
    int             RSA_client;
 };

-static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.ecst.csuchico.edu";
+static char    *metaserver = "metaserver.us.netrek.org";
 static int      metaport = 3521;
 static struct servers *serverlist;
 static int      num_servers;
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: netrek
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: randomize
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_0.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_1.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_2.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_3.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box_4.c
Only in brmh-2.4.0/: rsa_box.c


From karthik at karthik.com  Thu Aug  9 11:52:58 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:52:58 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>

Compilation fixes have already been applied to my BRMH 2.5.0 dev tree  
some time ago. There are several other fixes that are not in your  
diff (and your diff is likely to break some functionality by removing  
static variables.) There are a few feature additions as well, most  
notably improved sorting for the playerlist.

BRMH is not current under version control. I would be happy to send  
you a tarball and/or blessed beta binary of 2.5.0. I will put it  
under version control at some point in the future.


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 15:40:19 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:40:19 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] build fixes to the BRMH 2.4.0 tarball from
	http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/clients/brmh/src/BRMH-2.4.0.tar.gz
In-Reply-To: <43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>
References: <ecfa260c0708090116v3f155017xcf8d1db4c9d83bb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<43A613C8-9316-46C5-ABB6-F0F0715E2F68@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708091340l12f7e958x8ff984025d7e7c63@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/9/07, Karthik Arumugham <karthik at karthik.com> wrote:
> Compilation fixes have already been applied to my BRMH 2.5.0 dev tree
> some time ago. There are several other fixes that are not in your
> diff (and your diff is likely to break some functionality by removing
> static variables.) There are a few feature additions as well, most
> notably improved sorting for the playerlist.

Ah I see.

> BRMH is not current under version control. I would be happy to send
> you a tarball and/or blessed beta binary of 2.5.0. I will put it
> under version control at some point in the future.

If you could send me a tarball that would be great, thanks.

Zach


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:15:27 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:15:27 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:45:43 +1000 -=

> I've' lost the context of this discussion thread, and was unable
> to recover the context from what you sent. Could you please ask
> the question again?

Here the open questions, answer in separate posts if you prefer
answers from me that way, too:
------

- Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
	public in the flow of the list traffic (see reference to
	April in "how the director idea started"), how to engage
	specific people's interest to respond publicly?

- What's the function of the netrek council?
- Why not publicly (wiki, www?) declare it and its members when it started?

- You recommended "You should review the list of resources on the Wiki."
	When reading it, I saw "people in charge", but missed "the
	council".
	Will you (council) add it for completeness?

- I've listed Carlos as meta-service owner only, you said there is
	also FAQ + keyserver on Carlos' meta-server but also other
	meta-servers.
	- how to reach the FAQ on the meta-server? Who maintains it?
		(the FAQ isn't listed in ServicesList)
	- what other services are on other meta-servers besides
		game server list?

- I listed as owners of SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob.
	To which you stated "No, see the project definition on SF."
	- what exactly should I look for? I copied the "admin" list
	from there, or what "definition" do you mean?

- "Client blessing is pointless, since we have not TCA."
	What is TCA?
	When it's pointless, why require or even check for
	registered clients on "continuum"?
		(or are metas reporting wrong R flag?)
	R: "Means that this server supports (and may REQUIRE) RSA validation."

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:22:28 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:22:28 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812152228.GB4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:43:22 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:37:53PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > I can't help it that issues put in simple words don't mean the
> > same for everybody and therefore need clarification, but also
> > need patience and attention on the receiving/ requesting side
> > when given.
> 
> You can help it. It is your responsibility as well as ours. Simple
> words do not have a common meaning. But it takes more round trips
> during communication than you have been willing to give.

What makes you believe I'm not willing to do what it takes to
clarify things? Afterall, I'm still asking and answering.

> By batching your replies you make this clarification impractical.
> Limit yourself to small doses of communication, regularly. You
> must learn the words to use, and the only way to do that is to
> correct your words.

Correction is fine, if it's explicit and lead by good example.

Small doses, regularly: this can be a problem when I miss the
activity time of a thread and then people lose focus on what matter
but get lost in off-topic stuff.

When I couldn't follow live, I wanted to speed up the catching up to
sustain the general momentum of current activity, so I gave
explanations or detail in advance, so you wouldn't have to ask that
even later.

> > > Volunteer your efforts in something as a method of building
> > > credibility.
> > 
> > I thought I had as far as it was possible ... and time
> > permitted, currently too busy to even respond faster.
> 
> If you are too busy, then leave this task for later, otherwise in
> your haste you may hurt yourself.

I've always _taken_ my time exactly to avoid damage (to anyone).
That's the reason why things have become as slow and big as they
were.
 How can I make up for taking my time without making answers bigger
or giving them in "batched" mode to catch up what came in the
meantime?

Speed, size, frequency, thought: which of them to sacrifice in
favour of the others? What serves the cause of timely but satisfying
results better?
 I can't go faster (respond live when you "6-12 hours +/- off
people" wake up and get together) in general, but also I was
exceptionally busy in the past 2+ months, so even catching up
afterwards was delayed. (in April, when the issue (re-)started, I
had more time, but this changed soon thereafter)

You want small + often (correlating to fast) because it suits your
daily routine. I can't (couldn't) provide that.
Independent of that, I prefer reasoned responses, which can often
mean the opposite of fast.

Too many + big is bad for you, too fast + emotional/ spontaneous is
bad for me, because the issue requires longterm consideration, not
what suits just now.

Whatever I do, it is wrong for you, because I don't happen to have
the same activity cycle as you have (had).
 How can we get together then, without losing even more time for
split and stretched discussion, possibly losing focus/ context/
interest because it takes too long?

In "how the director idea started" you gave the answer to what
happens when it's stretched too far without carrying over the
context in bigger posts: you keep forgetting what it was about.

You once said you'd like things to change. But only when it's not
you who has to change?
(I mean that for posting style as well as netrek management)
How else should changes in general happen when not at the source of
power and direction?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:26:52 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:26:52 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?!
In-Reply-To: <20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812152651.GC4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:53:37 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:39:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > > { client, server, community hats }
> > ... but at the same time you reject responsiblity and commitment
> > to pick up or establish an official representative role [...]
> 
> Yes, I reject any responsibility to you to pick up or establish an
> official representative role.

That's not to only me, but all of netrek.
You wear those hats of power, but don't want to be taken responsible
for what "netrek" is, or have somebody do it for you?

Is "netrek" for you a game framework that you just happen to use in
one flavour for yourself (and those who happen to like yours), or a
clearly defined set of rules to mean 1 ("the") game for all (with
likewise clearly defined "mods" like hockey, paradise, ...)?
 (or what else?)

In the former case such a role makes no sense for "the game", but
likewise wouldn't be necessary since "borg" and other name calling
is pointless then, because there wouldn't be such a thing like "the
game".

By now, I guess I know _your_ answer, but that question is
unanswered by the rest of the list of resource holders.
(or in general by the community at large)

> Not sure what you mean by commitment, but I guess you meant "lack
> commitment".

... not just lack, but reject it for this purpose? If it were only
lack, that could be changed, but you deny that change by conviction
on the matter rather than antipathy for my way of bringing it up,
right?
Or is it just because of antipathy?

> Then you go on to define the role:
> 
> > to respond to requests as needed, make judgement calls more
> > explicit and public to establish a "conforming client + server"
> > system (technical and social) to extend your fairness to _all_
> > users independent of their client?
> 
> It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> this role? The role does not interest me.

Fine, I never claimed that the owners are the only possible.
I even suggested others to be the active part in their place.
I just considered them the 1st choice -- if they wanted such a role
to exist at all (independent of who'd run it) -- to make reaction
times between decisions and resources shorter.

> Maybe you should ask Zach?

I don't mind anyone doing it, as long as there is a big picture
leading it (consistency), publicity and activity (to provide
"fairness" within and across netrek styles).

But the role makes no sense without backup by the owners to support
and realize decisions, even if unpopular at 1st (by perception of
noise, not necessarily by number of people and relevance of reasons).

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:33:06 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:33:06 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] client control
In-Reply-To: <20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:03:35 +1000 -=

> > > I'd prefer to have simpletons rather than experts, attempting
> > > to cheat, since it will be more obvious and detectable on
> > > average.
> > 
> > A game cheater with open access to the code doesn't require
> > hacker qualities.
> 
> If by hacker you mean expert, then yes, that is true.

My mistake, I rather meant expert in overcoming protections.
When it's already open, you don't need that expertise.

> > How would the cheating differ between experts and simpletons
> > (among cheaters or hackers)? For example an aim or dodge
> > correction (copying from the bots).
> 
> It would differ in complexity.

With above clarification: somebody good at overcoming protections
need not be a good games cheater, and vice versa.
 With an already open game it only requires somebody with good
knowledge about the game mechanics to make a hard to detect borg.
 So you wouldn't gain anything for detecting it more easily by
leaving it open.

> > > By lowering the threshold it makes it easier to notice
> > > cheating.
> > 
> > And then do what?
> 
> Eject, ban, ridicule, post multi-line macros, or avoid.

a) Per above, it wouldn't necessarily be easier.

b) Once it's too hard to discover by game mechanics, you've either
	lost or need technical thresholds.

c) This is a list of social and political counter measures, yet you
	said in other thread about the "director role":

> It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> this role? The role does not interest me.

This sounds exactly what you suggest now, no?
So why not act as director ahead of time, or would you in fact
_not_ apply your given list when it really happened, because you
wouldn't be interested then in it either?

Again, I'd like to know what the _others_ in charge think about such
a social mechanism to avoid cheating in advance.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:35:53 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:35:53 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:11:16 +1000 -=

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> >  Allowing authors also to bless leaves it up to whom to decide what
> > "legal" netrek is? Based on what? The loudest "borg" shouters?
> 
> Back when RSA was in heavy use, the loudest shouters were indeed
> those who set the policy. Which in the absence of a social
> mechanism or leadership, or deliberative assembly, is how any
> group behaves. Only if such a social mechanism works can the
> technical mechanism have any significant effect.

Right.
That's why I asked for this social organization.
If it exists, to take action.
If it doesn't, to create it.

To which you said "let's have it", but later "I won't do it nor
surrender to/ support it".
 Which is fine, you're not obliged nor required as long as you let
others try, but you considered it as attack against you:
 won't do yourself, but neither let others?

And the other people "in charge" didn't even react at all for a long
time (some still haven't).

Which way to go? Or just stay where we are?
I'm tired of the "borg" shouters crossfire and general "my game is
the only that counts, do away with everything else" attitude while
nobody declares what this one game is and takes action to quiet the
noise.

I prefer to have "noise" (in the sense of public official
announcements) by a well defined leadership rather than by some
random, small, occasionally irrational mob.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:51:41 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:51:41 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:57:21 +1000 -=

> > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to
> > define netrek and control approved clients?
> 
> Four of us agreed to begin to set policy.
> { ... }
> I don't have the exact date, is it important?
> { ... }
>
> > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then?
> 
> Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication.

=- James Cameron wrote on Sat 21.Jul'07 at 10:21:47 +1000 -=

> On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 10:28:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > Need not be exact to the minute, but day, week, month, yes,
> > because if it was made public by one of you at some point in
> > _any_ way, I'd like to track down _how_ I missed that.
> 
> You weren't watching, apparently. It was mentioned in #netrek.
> Keep reading those logs.

"It was mentioned...", have _you_ said this? To me, when I asked you
and I responded to it?
Or is somebody speaking for you? Or the council?

Given the noise that happens on #netrek and that I haven't been
always present physically or technically, you'd have to tell me the
exact date or week at least.

> > If it wasn't made public, why not?
> 
> Well, firstly, I can't speak for the council, so I can't announce
> the existence of the council, it would have to be a motion of the
> council to do so.

But when it comes to matters belonging to the council's area of
concern you're fast (and often the only one) to respond.
You're very public, you'd be a good representative for netrek or the
council.

Then please suggest some way to make the council more public in its
functionality. How to interact with the council when it's secret and
no speaker in their name known?
What benefit has a _secret_ council when public requests need public
responses?

> Secondly, even if I did want to bypass that process, the last
> thing I'd want to do is tell *you*.

So... you haven't told me before?!
Nothing has changed, a secret council doesn't serve the public
community with regard to direction and noise control.

> Now that I've seen how you respond, this confirms my hesitation.

Respond to what, how?
What was bad about my reactions given your responses?

> You'd have to ask the council these questions. They aren't
> interesting enough for me to bring them to council.

You are aware that you listed yourself as member of the council?
Even though I acknowledge that you don't speak for the whole
council, you can speak for yourself; when asked as member it's your
turn to answer anyway: are you for or against a public speaker and
message process to declare the council's purpose and publish
decision progress?

The others can answer for themselves when asked; no worries, I can
distinguish that.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sun Aug 12 10:57:42 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:57:42 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:55:27 +1000 -=

> > Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer.
> > Especially don't use the form you later complain about.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't remember the question now.

I quoted it for reference in the beginning of this subthread not too
long ago. You wanted to know my definitions for some terms/ words I
used, to which I gave answers with more questions from me, but to
which you refused to answer because of the posting style (which you
had used to ask me 1st).
 This "refresh" subthread isn't as long + old as the original,
should have been easy to find in the archive, if you don't have a
local copy anymore.

But you shouldn't have forgotten the following points of my previous
posts in this subthread to which you responded so cut off above,
because they need some clarification in the light of your latest
post to the thread "Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
server".

My question in the previous message [with edited parts]:

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > do you refuse changes because you _can't_ (low on time) or
> > because you don't _want_ to change your habits (keep own
> > [current] trek commitment level low)? [...]
> > 
> > > Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the 
> > > transmitter and receiver. If you think otherwise, then your
> > > communication will be ignored.
> > 
> > Correct. It was not my fault alone, yet you refuse to respond at
> > least _your way_ (since you don't like mine).
------- QUOTE END -------

Your introduction line in that other post:

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.
------- QUOTE END -------

... and then you do it "my way": big, combined post.
This means: you _can_ change.

But what's different now?
Why didn't you respond your preferred immediate and "split up" way
as that thread came in?
Why can't you handle my posts when they are in the same form?

======

If you haven't read the big original one before, FYI:
- "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
	At first I thought "no, _you_ shouldn't feel attacked,
	because the request was not directed at you as much as the others".
	But then ... if you feel that way ... then something must be
	wrong and has been wrong all along.
	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.

- You asked me
	"When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
	when I explained that the personalized "dead line" summary
	request was only a consequence of a previous general attempt
	to get responses from the -- until then -- unconfirmed
	"people in charge".
	
	I recovered the reference: 
	Message-ID: <20070409133505.GA25175 at sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:35:05 +0200
	Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek organisation (all resource owners please read)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Aug 12 18:13:17 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:13:17 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] client control
In-Reply-To: <20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070701152220.GE5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054513.GB10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184058.GI12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718100335.GH3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153306.GD4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070812231317.GA3940@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:33:06PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:03:35 +1000 -=
> > It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> > be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> > this role? The role does not interest me.
> 
> This sounds exactly what you suggest now, no?
> So why not act as director ahead of time, or would you in fact
> _not_ apply your given list when it really happened, because you
> wouldn't be interested then in it either?

Why not act as director ahead of time?  Uninteresting task, lack of
clear success of the task, impossible to achieve technically.  You're
right, I would not be interested in it.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Sun Aug 12 18:29:52 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:29:52 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>

Rado:

If I understand your intent, as split over many different message threads:

Your concern and your feelings are not unique. Once upon a time, many 
years ago, there was a major break between the people who wanted to keep 
the standard Netrek rules + feel. Status quo if you wish. Others wanted 
to make the game all new with huge extensions. This became the birth of 
Netrek Paradise.

The source is open - you can do what you will. Nobody can stop you.

But, if you want to change the existing game, as maintained by the 
existing maintainers, you are going to have to deal with the fact that 
precedents have already been set, and expectations already exist. I saw 
you claim something to the effect of "this game is not your game - this 
is all of our game." The same applies in reverse, Rado. This game is not 
your game - this is all of our game. The community has put trust in the 
current people "in power", and there is little you can do about it.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Sun Aug 12 18:54:17 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:54:17 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>

Rado S wrote:
> [To James:] But when it comes to matters belonging to the council's area of
> concern you're fast (and often the only one) to respond.
> You're very public, you'd be a good representative for netrek or the
> council.
>
> Then please suggest some way to make the council more public in its
> functionality. How to interact with the council when it's secret and
> no speaker in their name known?
> What benefit has a _secret_ council when public requests need public
> responses?
I think you are showing some confusion over how organizations of many 
sorts function. I am going to provide some details for you to consider.

A friend of mine, who is a free mason would say: The organization has 
secrets. The organization is not secret. :-)

I am a board member of a member-owned organization called the National 
Capital FreeNet. As a board member, we keep secrets both for the 
benefits of the organization, and due to government requirements. For 
example, discussions regarding the salary of our Executive Director, or 
firing an employee are held "in camera", and not open to "the public". 
Other examples are strategy meetings, or meetings where the board will 
agree on a stance to have as a board with one voice. The practice of 
having secrets is normal to most organizations whether public or private.

At our meetings throughout the year, we try to invite the public, but 
there is no guarantee that the public will be allowed to speak. It is up 
to the chair person to decide whether or not to acknowledge questions 
raised from the floor. Members of an organization must now confuse their 
membership as a right to speak. We offer members the right to speak in 
the yearly AGM (annual general meeting). At this time, the members are 
invited to nominate candidates to be their representatives, and to elect 
the representatives that will serve them. General members do NOT have 
the right to speak. They have the right to elect representatives. If 
their representatives fail to serve them, they can gather sufficient 
support to have a representative evicted, or they can wait until the 
term ends and elect somebody else instead. This is much like the 
government. You can vote George Bush in. If he does things you don't 
like, there isn't much you can do except wait until his term is up and 
elect somebody else.

What rights do you believe you have? If your primary argument is that 
you do not understand how a "secret" council can provide value, your 
argument has no weight. Councils can serve members both in public and in 
secret, but often both. See the minutes from any meetings and see how 
they can be read in 5 minutes or less, for a meeting that took 60 
minutes or more to complete. What happened to the other minutes? Where 
are all the subtleties? What of all the inside jokes that were cut, 
because they might be offensive or misconstrued? These are all 
"secrets". Stuff that the minute taker didn't feel you needed to know.

In terms of Netrek - I wasn't aware that any official Netrek 
organization or committee existed. I don't think the name is 
trademarked, and I don't think there is any official entity, whether a 
person, or a business, who *owns* Netrek. There are copyrights from the 
last two decades that cover the works that make the source code 
available for nearly any use you wish. As such, I would say that you 
have many rights. Which also means that James, and the "secret council" 
also have many rights. In particular, just as *you* have the right to 
collect a few like minded people, meet at a bar, and discuss the future 
of Netrek, so do they have this same right. There is no requirement that 
they provide location and time to all players at least 5 business days 
in advance. There is no requirement that they ask your opinion.

In most open source movements, maintained by individuals who are 
primarily motivated by personal pride, the "leaders" are usually the 
people who step up to the plate, who are accepted amongst their peers. 
James has this authority. He stepped up. He is accepted. I accept him, 
and find myself offended by statements you have made about him that hint 
at malicious intent. If James and a few other share this respect, and 
elect to meet amongst themselves in private, they are fully within their 
right to do so *without* condemnation from you.

This is your rights: 1) You can continue to email people. I would 
suggest using a more respectful tone in order to maximize effectiveness. 
2) You can branch netrek, and see who jumps ship with you. If you really 
do know what you are talking about, you should be able to get a large 
enough base to move with you, and you can invent something like Netrek 
Paradise. Call it Rado Netrek. Whatever you wish. You remain fully 
empowered whichever route you take.

Good luck.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 13 13:50:52 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:50:52 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070813185052.GB9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Sun 12.Aug'07 at 19:29:52 -0400 -=

> Your concern and your feelings are not unique.

I guess so.

> { change game }
> This became the birth of Netrek Paradise.
> The source is open - you can do what you will. Nobody can stop
> you.

I'm already happy with Paradise, and I _don't_ want to _change_
Netrek (any).
 I want to know what Netrek (_any_) is, so better to judge what to
make of comments like "borg" and "other games stink and should be
vanquished": ignore because irrelevant or consider and find
solutions, or at least the interests of the powers if there can't be
a 100% safe technical solution (as James requires for client control).

> But, if you want to change the existing game, as maintained by the
> existing maintainers, you are going to have to deal with the fact
> that precedents have already been set, and expectations already
> exist.

No, I don't want to change the game itself. Even if, I wouldn't know
because I don't know what the game is.
I want to change the treatment of it around it once I know what the
game is or the powers' interests/ desires/ commitments in it.

> I saw you claim something to the effect of "this game is not your
> game - this is all of our game."

If I claimed that, then I'm sorry, didn't mean that, but rather to
ask: Is this "your" or "everybody's" game?
If it's yours, be happy with, and I'll be happy with mine.
If it's ours, let's see how to deal with it together.

> This game is not your game - this is all of our game. The
> community has put trust in the current people "in power", and
> there is little you can do about it.

I could (and even want to) trust them, if I knew what they are up to
and why they (don't) react as they do when I hoped for some reaction
from them, or some record of decisions to read up if I missed them.
Trust doesn't come from thin air. Oral agreements (or technical
equivalent of modern times like IRC or in-game chat or private
discussion) fade away or aren't even publicly known at all when
complaints are (re-)raised.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 13 14:45:10 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:45:10 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<46BF9DA9.8010106@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070813194509.GC9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Sun 12.Aug'07 at 19:54:17 -0400 -=

> I think you are showing some confusion over how organizations of
> many sorts function. I am going to provide some details for you to
> consider.

Thank you very much, you mostly (if not completely) matched my view
on that.

> A friend of mine, who is a free mason would say: The organization
> has secrets. The organization is not secret. :-)

As for "the council": it was. It didn't exist or wasn't mentioned
when I began requesting definition and authority (and possibly
control), but as you can read, it appeared in the meantime without a
notice, which would have silenced me quickly.

> As a board member, we keep secrets both for the benefits of the
> organization, and due to government requirements.
> {internals vs. public affairs}
> Other examples are strategy meetings, or meetings where the board
> will agree on a stance to have as a board with one voice.

Right.
Now, what qualifies for public interest?
I thought a stance on "borg" definition and treatment of its usage
or complaints about it would apply.
Are Paradise (or any) clients considered borg and should be changed
for Netrek?
Does anyone care enough to control it (socially or technically)?

You know, despite being a Paradiser primarily, I still love to play
the simple old game, too, but wouldn't want to be denied because my
client is clienta-non-grata, or spammed by purist fanatics trying to
fight off socially what they can't have technically: monopoly of
game style.

> At our meetings throughout the year, we try to invite the public,
> but there is no guarantee that the public will be allowed to speak.
> {...}
> Members of an organization must no[t] confuse their membership as
> a right to speak.

I want to hear/ read first what is there before I can/ want to speak.
But when there is nothing...?

> See the minutes from any meetings and see how they can be read in
> 5 minutes or less, for a meeting that took 60 minutes or more to
> complete. What happened to the other minutes? Where are all the
> subtleties? What of all the inside jokes that were cut, because
> they might be offensive or misconstrued? These are all "secrets".
> Stuff that the minute taker didn't feel you needed to know.

... and I don't want to know _that_!
But I want to see those 5 minutes!
I haven't seen any 1 of it yet.
Or if there was, there are still some ignoring it and complaining
about the passivity of the "council" but for opposite reasons than
mine.

> In terms of Netrek - I wasn't aware that any official Netrek
> organization or committee existed.

I wasn't looking for a legal entity, but real persons making real
decisions and taking real action on it, for everybody to know and
shut up so to find their own way: with or without the council.
But this clearity hasn't become real yet.

> {...} and I don't think there is any official entity, whether a
> person, or a business, who *owns* Netrek.

But the resources the current community runs on.
And the place/ name they run in/ under to be found easily.

> Which also means that James, and the "secret council" also have
> many rights. In particular, just as *you* have the right to
> collect a few like minded people, meet at a bar, and discuss the
> future of Netrek, so do they have this same right.

I'm not denying that, just want to know what they are up to and
whether we can get/ stay together or not.

> There is no requirement that they provide location and time to all
> players at least 5 business days in advance. There is no
> requirement that they ask your opinion.

No, but their results and _their_ opinions would help already!

> James has this authority. {...} I accept him, and find myself
> offended by statements you have made about him that hint at
> malicious intent.

The problem is there was no intent at all to judge it.
Inactivity isn't malicious by itself, it just isn't useful.

> If James and a few other share this respect, and elect to meet
> amongst themselves in private, they are fully within their right
> to do so *without* condemnation from you.

I'm not condemning him at all, but if, it would not be for what he
does, but what he didn't do thereafter: make results public, since
they affect the public, even if only for the climate of treating
each other.

> I would suggest using a more respectful tone in order to maximize
> effectiveness.

If questions alone are disrespectful, I can't stop that.
It all developed from asking simple questions.
What, who, why not, how else?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 13 23:51:30 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:51:30 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>

Okay.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:57:42PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:55:27 +1000 -=
> 
> > > Don't ask for something when you don't want to deal with the answer.
> > > Especially don't use the form you later complain about.
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't remember the question now.
> 
> I quoted it for reference in the beginning of this subthread not too
> long ago. You wanted to know my definitions for some terms/ words I
> used, to which I gave answers with more questions from me, but to
> which you refused to answer because of the posting style (which you
> had used to ask me 1st).
>  This "refresh" subthread isn't as long + old as the original,
> should have been easy to find in the archive, if you don't have a
> local copy anymore.
> 
> But you shouldn't have forgotten the following points of my previous
> posts in this subthread to which you responded so cut off above,
> because they need some clarification in the light of your latest
> post to the thread "Need help with security vulnerability in Vanilla
> server".
> 
> My question in the previous message [with edited parts]:
> 
> ------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > > do you refuse changes because you _can't_ (low on time) or
> > > because you don't _want_ to change your habits (keep own
> > > [current] trek commitment level low)? [...]
> > > 
> > > > Communication is the responsibility of both parties; the 
> > > > transmitter and receiver. If you think otherwise, then your
> > > > communication will be ignored.
> > > 
> > > Correct. It was not my fault alone, yet you refuse to respond at
> > > least _your way_ (since you don't like mine).
> ------- QUOTE END -------
> 
> Your introduction line in that other post:
> 
> ------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
> > Warning: composite reply to multiple posts.
> ------- QUOTE END -------
> 
> ... and then you do it "my way": big, combined post.
> This means: you _can_ change.
> 
> But what's different now?
> Why didn't you respond your preferred immediate and "split up" way
> as that thread came in?
> Why can't you handle my posts when they are in the same form?
> 
> ======
> 
> If you haven't read the big original one before, FYI:
> - "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
> 	At first I thought "no, _you_ shouldn't feel attacked,
> 	because the request was not directed at you as much as the others".
> 	But then ... if you feel that way ... then something must be
> 	wrong and has been wrong all along.
> 	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
> 	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
> 	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.
> 
> - You asked me
> 	"When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
> 	when I explained that the personalized "dead line" summary
> 	request was only a consequence of a previous general attempt
> 	to get responses from the -- until then -- unconfirmed
> 	"people in charge".
> 	
> 	I recovered the reference: 
> 	Message-ID: <20070409133505.GA25175 at sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
> 	Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:35:05 +0200
> 	Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek organisation (all resource owners please read)
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 14 23:20:03 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:20:03 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
> 	public in the flow of the list traffic (see reference to
> 	April in "how the director idea started"), how to engage
> 	specific people's interest to respond publicly?

It would depend on the person.  But as a general rule with volunteers,
you may need to give the right sort of information to motivate them to
respond.  If you find they are not responding, check to see if you are
doing the best you can - see How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

If you continue to get no response, then your request is just not
interesting enough.  Work to make it more interesting.

Do not attempt direct contact with specific people unless they have
invited you to do so.  There are several reasons for this, and you can
find some of them at http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/why.phtml which
is what I give to people who write to me on that project instead of
posting to the mailing list.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Aug 15 19:18:08 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:18:08 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070816001808.GB4904@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - What's the function of the netrek council?

I cannot tell you, you would have to ask the council.  I'm not empowered
to speak on behalf of the council in this way.

The council has not directly discussed function in deliberation, but
function has appeared as part of discussions on other subjects.

Also, the council has agreed to change name to Netrek Infrastructure
Team.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Thu Aug 16 15:37:21 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:37:21 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070816203720.GE18473@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin,

=- James Cameron wrote on Tue 14.Aug'07 at 14:51:30 +1000 -=

> Okay.

... to which of the points that you have quoted completely _below_
your own resonse? (which I abbreviated now)

- you did combined complex post yourself; when you do it, can you
	handle mine now, too, or is this just 1-way?

- "Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I take this as an attack."
	Even though I still don't mean to attack anyone to do harm,
	I actually mean to make people think and maybe change.
	If this equates to attack, then I'm sorry you see it that way.

- "When? Cite reference. Give link to archive"
	{ to general post preceding personal "dead-line" post }
	Link given.

- cut off signature:
	? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug 16 20:45:47 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:45:47 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - Why not publicly (wiki, www?) declare it and its members when it
> started?

I can't speak for the council on my own, sorry.  The council has not
directly discussed existence publicity in deliberation.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Thu Aug 16 21:39:07 2007
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:39:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>

Why is there so much fuss?  There is no secret council, and there is no
hidden agenda.  However, there has always been a small group of
individuals who have been responsible for maintaining the infrastructure
that serves as the foundation for all Netrek community resources.  This
has been public knowledge going back to the day these individuals
volunteered to provide and/or maintain the infrastructure.  These
individuals have communicated privately to address and resolve issues
regarding the infrastructure and have publicized any relevant
information to the community on a necessary basis.  All of these
individuals have been long time contributors and carry some measure of
respect and trust, and to my knowledge none of these individuals have
made private or public claims of authority over Netrek or the community
beyond what their assumed roles permit.  Due to the recent traffic about
unfair metaserver policies, I proposed back in April to formalize this
group into what is now the Netrek Infrastructure Team.  I felt that as
"gatekeepers" of the Netrek community, we should be more collaborative
in maintaining these infrastructure resources in an unbiased and fair
manner.  The other individuals agreed, and the group was formed.
Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions, and we can move on to more
important matters that may be of concern to the community.

Dave


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 17 14:21:26 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:21:26 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070815042003.GA3526@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070817192126.GC28706@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 15.Aug'07 at 14:20:03 +1000 -=

> > - Once people don't react to requests addressed to the general
> > public in the flow of the list traffic, how to engage specific
> > people's interest to respond publicly?
> 
> {...} If you find they are not responding, check to see if you are
> doing the best you can - see How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.
> 
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Can you give an example for a question I posed badly and how you
would have put it better?

> If you continue to get no response, then your request is just not
> interesting enough.

1st problem can be that the intended recipient might not be aware
it's intended for him.
That's why I've put names explicitely the 2nd time to exclude this
possibility.
Then they reacted as they did -> done (unless asked for or left open
questions). Dave and Bob made it pretty simple and well.
 Given their presumed load and limited awareness to regular traffic,
it seemed necessary to make it exceptional.

> Work to make it more interesting.

If the mere matter is not interesting enough in itself, I let it be
and rather find those who already share the interest and commitment.
All I need(ed) was _positive_ confirmation that the lack of interest
is the case and nothing else. I wanted to avoid to start things as
described, only later to learn that somebody feels "attacked" by it
and then "fights back" when this wasn't the intention.
You did now anyway, but better now than later, when there is more to
lose and spoil.

There is work, and there is work.
"Work" makes stuff intended to be fun less fun.
It's a matter of subjective perception, so have to find out
individually with each candidate where the limits are.

> Do not attempt direct contact with specific people unless they have
> invited you to do so.  There are several reasons for this, {...}

Thanks for the advice, but I was aware of that already.
Not only that, it also was/is my own and primary interest to resolve
this publicly for all to know, so that it need not be re-chewed
again.
Maybe I wasn't the first to ask those questions, but nobody pointed
me to existing answers and confirmed that they still applied.

> {...} and you can find some of them at
> http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/why.phtml which is what I give
> to people who write to me on that project instead of posting to
> the mailing list.

I can't remember having written to anyone in private.
If it was, then as mistake (unless asked for).

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Aug 18 09:28:16 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:28:16 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Dave Ahn wrote on Thu 16.Aug'07 at 22:39:07 -0400 -=

> Why is there so much fuss?

Because apparantly James likes to play games when I ask for serious
answers and he brought this "council" story up when it obviously
didn't apply to my original question.

I'm sorry about that it affects you more than necessary, especially
since you have declared your position before. I failed to ignore
anything said about you not originating from you. It shall never
happen again.

(still waiting for wiki and other things at your mercy ;)

> There is no secret council, and there is no hidden agenda.

James' answers were misleading there.

> However, there has always been a small group of individuals who
> have been responsible for maintaining the infrastructure that
> serves as the foundation for all Netrek community resources.

Yes, that was known, but not their current members and what their
individual roles are and the authorities attached to it.
 Neither whether they had any further "game defintion" and "fairness
control" interests -- only that they maybe hadn't the time for it
yet so might have let others do it (for them or on their own) -- or
strictly oppose any such motions.

> All of these individuals have been long time contributors and
> carry some measure of respect and trust, {...}

That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go about
potentially doing something of this size+impact against your interest.

> {...} and to my knowledge none of these individuals have made
> private or public claims of authority over Netrek or the community
> beyond what their assumed roles permit.

James apparently did when he declared the authority situation about
client fairness/ control had changed since I started asking about it
by bringing up "the council" with the listed members.

> I felt that as "gatekeepers" of the Netrek community, we should be
> more collaborative in maintaining these infrastructure resources
> in an unbiased and fair manner.

I'm glad to hear that. This I wanted to propagate even to those not
aware of it yet, as there obviously are some quite vocal against
this fairness across game styles, but nobody keeping them in check.
_Now_ _I_ can do that without being wrong in your sense, when nobody
else from the NIT does.

The only thing unresolved yet is the question what fairness within a
game style means: what's OK, what's borg, how to implement control,
or has this any relevance anymore at all?

Now with your 2 responses on this matter I know that _you_ (which I
mistakingly believed [want] to be final authority for a "the netrek
game") don't want to be bothered with that, in any way.
 So I'll try to find answers elsewhere.

> Hopefully this clears up any misconceptions, and we can move on to
> more important matters that may be of concern to the community.

Yes, it does. I'm sorry for my share in the disturbances.
Moving and looking forward into a better future.
How can we help you? (other than being patient) ;)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From billbalcerski at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 09:37:15 2007
From: billbalcerski at gmail.com (Bill Balcerski)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:37:15 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <45ab86180708180737x37128b99k733fb18ce3a392d9@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/18/07, Rado S <regrado at web.de> wrote:

> The only thing unresolved yet is the question what fairness within a
> game style means: what's OK, what's borg, how to implement control,
> or has this any relevance anymore at all?
>
At the moment, it works like this.  Client authors add features.
Features are made known to the 2 server operators (Karthik and James)
via either pre-release access to changes, or in the case of MacTrek,
release notes :).  Said server operators request features be removed
(rare) or feature packeted (often).  Client authors mostly cooperate.
In the end it will always be the server operators who say what is and
isn't borg.  Obviously the feelings of the community will have some
sway in their decision as to what they allow, but ultimately it's up
to them.
Bill


From niclas at acc.umu.se  Sun Aug 19 15:07:48 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 22:07:48 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] Response from Dave
In-Reply-To: <20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007, Rado S wrote:

> That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go about 
> potentially doing something of this size+impact against your interest.

What are you going to do?

-- Niclas


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Aug 19 18:02:14 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:02:14 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070819230214.GA4041@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - You recommended "You should review the list of resources on the Wiki."
> 	When reading it, I saw "people in charge", but missed "the
> 	council".
> 	Will you (council) add it for completeness?

http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/ServicesList is the list of
resources that I was writing about at the time.  Yes, it does currently
contain the phrase "people in charge", and does not contain "the
council".

The Netrek Infrastructure Team has not decided to do anything in
particular about this page on the development Wiki.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 20 12:56:49 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:56:49 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708192207220.19855@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Niclas Fredriksson wrote on Sun 19.Aug'07 at 22:07:48 +0200 -=

> > That's why was I asking you all (incl. James) _before_ I'd go
> > about potentially doing something of this size+impact against
> > your interest.
> 
> What are you going to do?

Re-read this overall thread's starter.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:11:06 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:11:06 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>Re-read this overall thread's starter.
>


From regrado at web.de  Mon Aug 20 15:54:57 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:54:57 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820175649.GA26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F2897A69B6C8E6BF9889DF1CBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Mon 20.Aug'07 at 15:11:06 -0500 -=

> identifying certain areas of responsibility,

Right.

> replacing people who have volunteered their time and made numerous
> contributions to Netrek for many years and restructuring the
> Netrek community.

When they don't want to volunteer for this ...

> The ideas you presented several months ago for restructuring would
> require a tremendous amount of community support which I do not
> sense there is.

... I still wonder why you all are so upset, when they themselves
aren't. It's not like I wanted to take anything away from them but
built on top of their groundwork things, which they weren't
interested in to do themselves.

> I believe a majority of the people you asked for responses from
> have responded.

3 of 5: 1 apparently totally out of netrek business, 1 uncaring.
2 of 3 (total 5) useful responses, so 2 win:2 loss:1 draw.
I'd rather call it balanced, not majority.

> They may not have given the answers you wanted but they did
> respond.

All 3 have, although the 3rd one's weren't as useful.

> Were there additional pieces that I missed?

Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites as
baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with netrek.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:57:10 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:57:10 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>When they don't want to volunteer for this ...
>

But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the community 
if they don't respond to you?  One always has the right to share ideas but 
without proper support they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

>
>... I still wonder why you all are so upset, when they themselves
>aren't. It's not like I wanted to take anything away from them but
>built on top of their groundwork things, which they weren't
>interested in to do themselves.
>

I think people are more confused then upset.

>
>Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites as
>baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with netrek.
>

For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.  I see no 
reason to share this information with anyone other then those currently 
working on the promotion project for netrek.org.  I have offered to merge 
playnetrek.org with netrek.org which will also pass along the rankings I 
have earned to draw in new players over the years.  I have also offered my 
services with promoting Netrek through netrek.org once the transition is 
complete.  Dave, Andrew and myself have all agreed to work together to see 
this transition through.  There is no timeline for completion.

-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! 
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us



From jrd at gerdesas.com  Mon Aug 20 17:32:52 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:32:52 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070820223252.GI3755@mail.beanhq.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 04:57:10PM -0500, Joe Evango wrote:
> 
> But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the community 
> if they don't respond to you?  One always has the right to share ideas but 
> without proper support they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

	Unless Sven is willing to change DNS entries for clientkeys,
	metaserver and other items I don't see how Rado could, quite
	frankly.

> I think people are more confused then upset.

	Well, the initial message that started all this discussion
	rubbed some people the wrong way.  Most people do not take
	well to threats.

> For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.  I see no 
> reason to share this information with anyone other then those currently 
> working on the promotion project for netrek.org.  I have offered to merge 

	I concur with this.  Time and real money has gone into this
	work.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 20 19:52:03 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:52:03 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070821005203.GD6029@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - I've listed Carlos as meta-service owner only, you said there is
> 	also FAQ + keyserver on Carlos' meta-server but also other
> 	meta-servers.

Agreed.

> 	- how to reach the FAQ on the meta-server? Who maintains it?
> 		(the FAQ isn't listed in ServicesList)

Per metarc in the metaserver sources [1], the port number is 3524, and
is reached using telnet.  Only one of the three metaservers have this
port enabled, but the file is missing so an error is generated.  The
file in the sources is out of date [2].  Patches welcome.

[1]  http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-metaserver/metarc

[2]  http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-metaserver/server_faq

> 	- what other services are on other meta-servers besides
> 		game server list?

See [1] above for the other services on the metaservers.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 00:14:53 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:14:53 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
Message-ID: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>

A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/

There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches welcome.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Tue Aug 21 01:35:07 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:35:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>

Looks cool - but I wasn't able to run it, and I didn't have time to open 
it up and see. Missing images? :-)

$ python netrek.py
Netrek Client Pygame
Copyright (C) 2007 James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org>

This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details see source.
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain
conditions; see source for details.

ALSA lib confmisc.c:769:(parse_card) cannot find card ''
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function 
snd_func_card_driver returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:392:(snd_func_concat) error evaluating strings
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_concat 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:1251:(snd_func_refer) error evaluating name
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_refer 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib conf.c:3982:(snd_config_expand) Evaluate error: No such device
ALSA lib pcm.c:2144:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM default
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "netrek.py", line 2708, in <module>
    ph_splash = PhaseSplash(screen)
  File "netrek.py", line 2158, in __init__
    self.background("hubble-helix.jpg")
  File "netrek.py", line 2074, in background
    background = ic.get(name)
  File "netrek.py", line 675, in get
    self.cache[name] = self.read(name)
  File "netrek.py", line 670, in read
    image = pygame.image.load('images/' + name)
pygame.error: Couldn't open images/hubble-helix.jpg



James Cameron wrote:
> A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
> by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.
>
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/
>
> There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches welcome.
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>   


-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>

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From darius at dons.net.au  Tue Aug 21 01:39:48 2007
From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:09:48 +0930
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <200708211609.49342.darius@dons.net.au>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, James Cameron wrote:
> A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system
> supported by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS
> X, and Linux.
>
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/
>
> There are many missing features, including messaging.  Patches
> welcome.

Looks lovely, nice work!

Huzzah for a truly cross platform client :)

-- 
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C
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From darius at dons.net.au  Tue Aug 21 01:56:20 2007
From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:26:20 +0930
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.2 released
In-Reply-To: <46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070821051453.GA13834@us.netrek.org>
	<46CA879B.5010004@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <200708211626.22042.darius@dons.net.au>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Mark Mielke wrote:
> Looks cool - but I wasn't able to run it, and I didn't have time to
> open it up and see. Missing images? :-)

Edit netrek.py and put a comment mark (#) in front of lines 2158, 2168, 
and 2291.

-- 
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 02:02:31 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:02:31 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.3 released
Message-ID: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>

A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/

This release fixes a missing image file, which was present in the source
repository and the Debian style package build, but not in the tar.gz
build.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 12:40:31 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:40:31 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
References: <20070820205457.GB26887@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F34C40728937D3CC28B851ACBDB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Mon 20.Aug'07 at 16:57:10 -0500 -=

> But do you have the authority to replace people or restructure the
> community if they don't respond to you?

Why shouldn't I have?

Being part of the public (and everyone else who once in a while barks
"borg" adds to this public demand), it's the authority of the public
when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public requests.
Of course it would require those barking to do something about their
complaints more than just barking. If it turned out to be hot air,
all the better for me: I can safely ignore them, too.
(although still I'd prefer a system to control fairness, so not to
have clients discriminated without backed up reason, and generally
fair games, once you know what fairness for a given game means and
what not).

What's bad about replacing those "in charge" when they can't or
don't want to implement the supposedly demanded fairness?

> One always has the right to share ideas but without proper support
> they usually will not succeed in implementing them.

You can't know before you ask and then try.
And asking for support (active or passive) was all I did.

> I think people are more confused then upset.

But ... about what?
I laid down the concept, asked for volunteers among the owners, then
permission to go without them but with their infrastructure, or
straight opposition. When some busy people didn't react for a very
long time, I didn't want to wait forever for an answer to have their
_positive_ dis-/approval. Should every action be delayed forever
when required responses "hang" forever? There is always some
"timeout" to get moving (and kill a process when it blocks access).
 What's confusing about that?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 13:18:06 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:18:06 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
Message-ID: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin, re campaigning...

> >Yes, to explain what keywords or means you use on 3rd party sites
> >as baits for newbs when they search for games to stick with
> >netrek.
> 
> For numerous reasons this information is not for public release.

Ok, seems I'm too little into this business to have an idea how
public discussion about a public campaign could hurt you.
And, how this campaigning business is supposed to work at all.

What's the typical _general_ scenario for the most promising turnout
case you're trying to cover (if you don't want to give away secret
details about the specific netrek campaign [security by obscurity?])?

Who (newb and campaigner) does what (type or read) to make a newb
look at or even stay with netrek?
 (only campaigning, not in-game)

> I see no reason to share this information with anyone other then
> those currently working on the promotion project for netrek.org.

To get feedback, more opinions, experience, ideas you haven't
thought of. Or are you (your group) a "know it all", too?

Remember how we (re-)learned about your private investments with
your solo campaigning efforts of which apparently nobody else knew?

If you hadn't brought this into a discussion we had, you wouldn't
have been advised to coordinate with others and perhaps wouldn't
have joined with Andrew so fast as you have now, still working on
your own.

> Dave, Andrew and myself have all agreed to work together to see
> this transition through.

Is there anyone against this that you feel you must protect it?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:39:37 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:39:37 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>Why shouldn't I have?
>Being part of the public (and everyone else who once in a while barks
>"borg" adds to this public demand), it's the authority of the public
>when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public requests.
>

Were you requesting or demanding?  What are you not receiving responses on?  
Seems like most everyone you asked for replies from have given them, some 
several times.

>
>What's bad about replacing those "in charge" when they can't or
>don't want to implement the supposedly demanded fairness?
>

Notice you used the word "demanded" instead of "requested".  Fairness in 
regards to what?  Paradise?  This has already been answered.

>
>You can't know before you ask and then try.
>And asking for support (active or passive) was all I did.
>

I didn't get the feeling you were asking.  Seemed more like an ultimatum.

>
>But ... about what?
>I laid down the concept, asked for volunteers among the owners, then
>permission to go without them but with their infrastructure, or
>straight opposition. Should every action be delayed forever
>when required responses "hang" forever? There is always some
>"timeout" to get moving (and kill a process when it blocks access).
>  What's confusing about that?
>

For one I am confused about what exactly your role is in the community.  
Outside of the dev list and #netrek I have never seen you on a server nor 
has anyone else I have spoken with.  How can someone restructure a gaming 
community if they are disconnected from the game and never play?  What 
action and what process?

-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Now you can see trouble?before he arrives 
http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_protection_0507



From regrado at web.de  Tue Aug 21 14:39:54 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:39:54 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

*sigh*

=- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 13:39:37 -0500 -=

>> when the powers in charge don't (want to) respond to public
>> requests.
>
> Were you requesting or demanding?

There is a demand for fairness.
There was my request to satisfy it, or that I could/ would try.
So, both.

> What are you not receiving responses on? Seems like most everyone
> you asked for replies from have given them, some several times.

As I said, 2 of them were only once each, and those were the useful
ones, but only after the personlized version.
The one with "several" times was contradicting himself.

For what is still open: see post of Bill.
 I asked him in #netrek about it, but before repeating here again:
 this has already been covered before in the thread starters
(general and personalized), see archive.

> Fairness in regards to what? Paradise? This has already been
> answered.

Yes, and I acknowledged that already, what's your point?
There is inter-style and intra-style fairness.
One is solved, the other not.

>> And asking for support (active or passive) was all I did.
>
> I didn't get the feeling you were asking. Seemed more like an
> ultimatum.
> 
>> Should every action be delayed forever when required responses
>> "hang" forever? There is always some "timeout" to get moving (and
>> kill a process when it blocks access).
>> What's confusing about that?
>
> What action and what process?

That was an analogy from the computer world to help you understand
that there is no evil intent, but that's just how things work.
When processes depend on each other and one "hangs" you can either
wait forever or set a timeout and move on. If the "move on" is
blocked by the "hanging" process, it gets released.
("man ps", "man kill", "man sleep", "man wait")

> For one I am confused about what exactly your role is in the
> community.

Well, so was I about the mysterious "council".

My role is "interested member, willing to do something about
bringing netrek styles together": united we're stronger.

> Outside of the dev list and #netrek I have never seen you on a
> server nor has anyone else I have spoken with.

So?
Has this any influence on the validity of logic?

> How can someone restructure a gaming community if they are
> disconnected from the game and never play?

By long-time listening to what has (not) happened over the years,
while netrek was alive and hibernating thereafter.
The ideas are old (from the time when I started with netrek), but I
still remember them.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 21 15:19:59 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:19:59 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
In-Reply-To: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F263F5478FD78652EA9CEBCCBD40@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>What's the typical _general_ scenario for the most promising turnout
>case you're trying to cover (if you don't want to give away secret
>details about the specific netrek campaign [security by obscurity?])?
>

To promote Netrek, the game as a whole, through a single point of 
distribution.

>
>Remember how we (re-)learned about your private investments with
>your solo campaigning efforts of which apparently nobody else knew?
>

Perhaps you just learned about this.  I have been in discussion with many 
people about my campaigning since the beginning.  Much of it through rgn, 
email and in discussions on servers.


-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! 
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2



From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Tue Aug 21 15:20:11 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:20:11 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46CB48FB.9070701@mark.mielke.cc>

I feel like a newbie. :-)

My notebook that I regularly use for everything has a resolution of 
1280x800. Without a fullscreen mode for this application, this gets 
trimmed by about 30 pixels top and bottom due to control panels. So, 
1280x740. I was unable to see the bottom of the screen to login under 
the 1000x1000 resolution that netrek.py seems configured to use. I tried 
setting it to 1000x740, but this resulted in:

$ python netrek.py
Netrek Client Pygame
Copyright (C) 2007 James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org>

This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details see source.
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain
conditions; see source for details.

ALSA lib confmisc.c:769:(parse_card) cannot find card ''
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function 
snd_func_card_driver returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:392:(snd_func_concat) error evaluating strings
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_concat 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib confmisc.c:1251:(snd_func_refer) error evaluating name
ALSA lib conf.c:3510:(_snd_config_evaluate) function snd_func_refer 
returned error: No such device
ALSA lib conf.c:3982:(snd_config_expand) Evaluate error: No such device
ALSA lib pcm.c:2144:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM default
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "netrek.py", line 3125, in <module>
    ph_login = PhaseLogin(screen)
  File "netrek.py", line 2654, in __init__
    self.cycle()
  File "netrek.py", line 2511, in cycle
    self.display_sink()
  File "netrek.py", line 2484, in display_sink
    self.display_sink_event(event)
  File "netrek.py", line 2475, in display_sink_event
    self.kb(event)
  File "netrek.py", line 2734, in kb
    self.tab()
  File "netrek.py", line 2663, in tab
    self.password = Field("password ? ", "", 500, 800)
  File "netrek.py", line 2348, in __init__
    self.pg = screen.subsurface(self.pr).copy()
ValueError: subsurface rectangle outside surface area


Does everybody have 1000 pixel tall screens now, and I'm behind? :-)

I'll fiddle with it later tonight.

Thanks,
mark


James Cameron wrote:
> A Netrek client, using pygame, usable on any operating system supported
> by python and pygame, including Microsoft Windows, MAC OS X, and Linux.
>
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek-client-pygame/
>
> This release fixes a missing image file, which was present in the source
> repository and the Debian style package build, but not in the tar.gz
> build.
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>   


-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>

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From jrd at gerdesas.com  Tue Aug 21 15:24:51 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:24:51 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070821202451.GJ3755@mail.beanhq.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 09:39:54PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> 
> For what is still open: see post of Bill.
>  I asked him in #netrek about it, but before repeating here again:
>  this has already been covered before in the thread starters
> (general and personalized), see archive.

	The archive is mailman/pipermail based, and is not searchable.

	Summarize or provide a URL.

> My role is "interested member, willing to do something about
> bringing netrek styles together": united we're stronger.
> 
> > Outside of the dev list and #netrek I have never seen you on a
> > server nor has anyone else I have spoken with.
> 
> So?
> Has this any influence on the validity of logic?

	Actually, yes.

> > How can someone restructure a gaming community if they are
> > disconnected from the game and never play?
> 
> By long-time listening to what has (not) happened over the years,
> while netrek was alive and hibernating thereafter.
> The ideas are old (from the time when I started with netrek), but I
> still remember them.

	So, basically you are a non-player and are completely and
	fully removed from the player base, therefore not having
	any understanding of what's going on from a player's
	perspective?  Please correct me if I am wrong.

	And note I am referring to the bronco player base, as at the
	moment it is the only one that matters due to it being the
	only viable style of the game currently being played by the
	masses.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 21 15:41:41 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:41:41 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>As I said, 2 of them were only once each, and those were the useful
>ones, but only after the personlized version.
>The one with "several" times was contradicting himself.
>

So you received answers, but not all were what you wanted to hear.

>
>Yes, and I acknowledged that already, what's your point?
>There is inter-style and intra-style fairness.
>One is solved, the other not.
>

Which is solved and which is not?

>
>That was an analogy from the computer world to help you understand
>that there is no evil intent, but that's just how things work.
>When processes depend on each other and one "hangs" you can either
>wait forever or set a timeout and move on. If the "move on" is
>blocked by the "hanging" process, it gets released.
>("man ps", "man kill", "man sleep", "man wait")
>

What process is being blocked?

>
>So?
>Has this any influence on the validity of logic?
>

Of course.  A majority of the community does not reside on the dev list or 
on #netrek.  They are on the servers.  How can someone truly know the 
validity of their logic when making decisions about restructuring the Netrek 
community if they don't interact with the players on the servers?


-Joe

_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. 
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507



From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Tue Aug 21 15:59:28 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (Mark Mielke)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:59:28 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <46CB5230.1030406@mark.mielke.cc>

Joe Evango wrote:
>> From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>>
>> As I said, 2 of them were only once each, and those were the useful
>> ones, but only after the personlized version.
>> The one with "several" times was contradicting himself.
> So you received answers, but not all were what you wanted to hear.

As a mildly interested sympathetic ear (presumedly the same as Joe), who 
has monitored this list for a few years now, I don't understand what 
Rado wants, or why he feels James is failing him.

Rado: Your theories are simply not how open source projects work. If you 
tried your techniques on the linux kernel list you would be far more 
loudly criticized.

Nobody here is questioning any of the "rulers" we have today except for 
Rado. I don't see a single person supporting Rado.

Rado: Perhaps this should tell you something?

Cheers,
mark

-- 
Mark Mielke <mark at mielke.cc>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 18:02:36 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:02:36 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <46CB48FB.9070701@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>
	<46CB48FB.9070701@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070821230235.GA3749@us.netrek.org>

G'day Mark,

The client certainly does require 1000x1000 resolution, and does not
do any flexible scaling.  It would be possible to add.  Noted.

hunk ./netrek.py 3103
+# FIXME: #1187736407 support screen resolutions below 1000x1000
+# FIXME: #1187736408 support a full screen mode

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 21 19:00:52 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:00:52 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070822000052.GC3749@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - I listed as owners of SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob.
> 	To which you stated "No, see the project definition on SF."
> 	- what exactly should I look for? I copied the "admin" list
> 	from there, or what "definition" do you mean?

You didn't say "Project Admins" at the time, you said owners.  To me,
the owners of the SourceForge project are the members, since any of them
may commit code.

I agree that the "Project Admins" are Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt
Siegl, Bob Tanner and Carlos Villalpando.

At the moment the members of the SourceForge project don't include you,
probably because you haven't needed to contribute any code to a source
repository kept there.

I don't see the membership of the SourceForge project as being very
significant, since:

(a) many of the source repositories are no longer maintained on
SourceForge,

(b) many of the file releases are done using netrek.org rather than
SourceForge.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 23:09:09 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:09:09 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-pygame 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20070821230235.GA3749@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070821070231.GA16460@us.netrek.org>
	<46CB48FB.9070701@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070821230235.GA3749@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0708212109k767bec95m101a9b9aeef7ce56@mail.gmail.com>

I noted this problem earlier, on IRC last night. I have 1024x768 max screen.

Zach

On 8/21/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> G'day Mark,
>
> The client certainly does require 1000x1000 resolution, and does not
> do any flexible scaling.  It would be possible to add.  Noted.
>
> hunk ./netrek.py 3103
> +# FIXME: #1187736407 support screen resolutions below 1000x1000
> +# FIXME: #1187736408 support a full screen mode


From niclas at acc.umu.se  Wed Aug 22 05:46:58 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:46:58 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Rado S wrote:

>> For one I am confused about what exactly your role is in the community.
>
> Well, so was I about the mysterious "council".

The "council" is not mysterious to anyone who has been part of the netrek 
community long enough to recognize the long time players and developers. 
The only thing that people could be confused about is what label these 
people (James, Ahn, Sven, etc) have, but it's quite clear who they are, 
what they have contributed and what they are doing for the game. "The 
council" has several players who have played and/or developed this game 
for close to 15 years now, and their experience holds a lot of weight with 
the community. As far as you go, no one has seen you on a server or even 
know what your last name is or what country you're from, so it's not fair 
of you to expect people to just line up when you call for attention.

If you want to help out, I suggest you join the team. There is no strict 
hierarchy in the netrek community. Anyone who wants to help out can just 
pick up a thread and go, be it to develop a client, work on the server, 
set up a server, teach newbies to play, etc. There has never been and 
probably will never be a need for the netrek community to be as defined as 
the leadership of a country.

>> Outside of the dev list and #netrek I have never seen you on a server 
>> nor has anyone else I have spoken with.
>
> So? Has this any influence on the validity of logic?

If you don't know the game, its community, its development phase or its 
code people will be quite skeptical of your attempts to change everything.

Also, you seem to have a tendency to type a lot of words without actually 
saying much. You should focus on shortening down your postings and making 
the information more compact. That's generally how you discuss things on a 
mailing list.

-- Niclas


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Aug 22 07:07:26 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:07:26 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070822120726.GA3060@us.netrek.org>

+1

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From karthik at karthik.com  Wed Aug 22 10:26:39 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:26:39 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] metaserver3.us.netrek.org
Message-ID: <D52048F7-369E-488D-B714-F9EC9B78DEA0@karthik.com>

Sent this to all server admins, but not everybody is listing on  
metaserver3 yet, so I send this again here:

We now have a third metaserver; the first two are on the same  
network, so it was decided by the Netrek Infrastructure Team to add a  
third in another location. Please add a solicit line for  
"metaserver3.us.netrek.org" if you are running a public server that  
you want listed.

Thank you.


From regrado at web.de  Wed Aug 22 13:36:22 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:36:22 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron (faq)
In-Reply-To: <20070821005203.GD6029@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070821005203.GD6029@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070822183622.GA15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 10:52:03 +1000 -=

> > - how to reach the FAQ on the meta-server? Who maintains it?
> > (the FAQ isn't listed in ServicesList)
> 
> Only one of the three metaservers have this port enabled, but the
> file is missing so an error is generated. The file in the sources
> is out of date [2]. Patches welcome.

Given the content it seems just like a more detailed list of servers
and info about them. I guess this is content-wise as well as
technically obsolete since solicitation appeared to list active
servers and the wiki lists meta-info for anyone to update?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Wed Aug 22 13:45:08 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:45:08 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron (sf)
In-Reply-To: <20070822000052.GC3749@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070822000052.GC3749@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070822184508.GB15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 22.Aug'07 at 10:00:52 +1000 -=

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > - I listed as owners of SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob.
> > 	To which you stated "No, see the project definition on SF."
> > 	- what exactly should I look for? I copied the "admin" list
> > 	from there, or what "definition" do you mean?
> 
> You didn't say "Project Admins" at the time, you said owners. To
> me, the owners of the SourceForge project are the members, since
> any of them may commit code.

But the admins have the final say.
Or what for is the differentiation between admins and non-admins?
Why not make everyone admins then?

> At the moment the members of the SourceForge project don't include
> you, probably because you haven't needed to contribute any code to
> a source repository kept there.

I was aware of that . . . o O (???)

> I don't see the membership of the SourceForge project as being very
> significant, since:
> (a) many of the source repositories are no longer maintained on
> SourceForge,
> (b) many of the file releases are done using netrek.org rather than
> SourceForge.

b) so not all, so it's still used ... to some degree and therefore
matters.

a) when this all started the status was different.



BTW, I notice you still don't adjust the subject to reflect the
content as you once advised me... don't get lax on your own ideals,
when you specifically separate them by subject, it was good advice.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Wed Aug 22 14:39:48 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:39:48 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F263F5478FD78652EA9CEBCCBD40@phx.gbl>
References: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F263F5478FD78652EA9CEBCCBD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 15:19:59 -0500 -=

> >What's the typical _general_ scenario for the most promising
> >turnout case you're trying to cover (if you don't want to give
> >away secret details about the specific netrek campaign [security
> >by obscurity?])?
> 
> To promote Netrek, the game as a whole, through a single point of
> distribution.

Eh... that's not what I mean. The basic principle to unite is clear
to have a bigger "receiving" pool where people end up when they've
been lured in already.
 I'm more interested in what you do to spread the word about netrek
to places where people haven't heard of it yet to _lure_ them in.

What would a campaigner in advance do, and then what would a newbie
do to notice and stay with netrek in preference over competitors
(outside the netrek world)?
- browse generic game sites/ portals and stumble over banners/
links?
- search for certain keywords (which you don't want to disclose) in
search engines?
- what else?


The most interesting question you didn't address:
- are there enemies against your efforts?
	(and therefore what would be the reason to not go public
	with the whole preparations, how would this hurt?)

> >Remember how we (re-)learned about your private investments with
> >your solo campaigning efforts of which apparently nobody else
> >knew?
> 
> Perhaps you just learned about this.

Apparently it wasn't just I, or maybe others just forgot about it
again and were reminded.
But likewise you were interested, at least back then, see those and
their followups:
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/2007-March/004143.html
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/2007-March/004147.html
http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/2007-March/004150.html

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Aug 22 18:37:44 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:37:44 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070822233744.GA5519@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:15:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> - "Client blessing is pointless, since we have not TCA."
> 	What is TCA?

Trusted Computing Architecture.  My mistake, not a common enough term.
Instead, use the term Trusted Computing (TC) and the Trusted Platform
Module (TPM).

The current RSA based client program verification scheme used by Netrek
is trivial to defeat.  Upon analysis, the reason for this is that the
attacker (user) is in direct control of the hardware on which the
program runs, and can simply modify the instructions being executed.
There is nothing to prevent or detect this.  TC and TPM would detect
this.

Further, such modifications can be automated and distributed rapidly
over the internet.

That we have not seen many only indicates that the market is small;
there are so few Netrek players.  If growth occurs, the problem will be
enlarged.  Social controls fail when social structure is changed.

> 	When it's pointless, why require or even check for
> 	registered clients on "continuum"?

Continuum currently does not require that a client's RSA key be valid.
[CONFIRM=0 in etc/sysdef]

> 		(or are metas reporting wrong R flag?)

The metaservers are indeed reporting a static value, indicating whether
a server supports RSA validation by nature of it being compiled with
the necessary program code.  [ntserv/solicit.c isrsa++]

> 	R: "Means that this server supports (and may REQUIRE) RSA validation."

Continuum is complying with that definition.  The server supports, and
may require, RSA validation.  The word "may" in this context can mean
either "has permission to" or "might".

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 22 19:21:12 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:21:12 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
References: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de><BAY113-F263F5478FD78652EA9CEBCCBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <BAY113-DAV1440720F168ADAE6DF1AABCBD60@phx.gbl>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>The most interesting question you didn't address:
>- are there enemies against your efforts?
>

Your words, not mine.  I simply said for numerous reasons, none of which I
care to discuss in a public forum.

>
>But likewise you were interested, at least back then, see those and
>their followups:

I was interested and acted on those interests by working with certain
individuals on the merger and on a decent marketing plan which we have.  I
certainly never intended on discussing the fine details of everything I have
done or what we will be doing in a public forum.  I did say I was interested
in hearing ideas.

Also, my posts were before you started the thread in May about the ousting
of certain individuals who have proven to be the backbone of this community
and volunteered an incredible amount of their time and resources to support
Netrek.  They were before you called for the restructuring of a gaming
community for a game you never play.  Your email thread for responses from
certain individuals has been going for almost 3 months you still have open
issues.  Based on what I have seen I have to question your intentions.
After observing your communication methods the past 3 months I don't care to
go any further with you about the discussion of marketing Netrek.  A plan is
in place, it is fair, it is being worked on, please be patient.


-Joe



From joe at playnetrek.org  Wed Aug 22 19:09:13 2007
From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:09:13 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
References: <20070821181806.GB2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de><BAY113-F263F5478FD78652EA9CEBCCBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <004101c7e519$d6ff30e0$0401a8c0@joesmain>

>From: Rado S <regrado at web.de>
>
>The most interesting question you didn't address:
>- are there enemies against your efforts?
>

Your words, not mine.  I simply said for numerous reasons, none of which I 
care to discuss in a public forum.

>
>But likewise you were interested, at least back then, see those and
>their followups:

I was interested and acted on those interests by working with certain 
individuals on the merger and on a decent marketing plan which we have.  I 
certainly never intended on discussing the fine details of everything I have 
done or what we will be doing in a public forum.  I did say I was interested 
in hearing ideas.

Also, my posts were before you started the thread in May about the ousting 
of certain individuals who have proven to be the backbone of this community 
and volunteered an incredible amount of their time and resources to support 
Netrek.  They were before you called for the restructuring of a gaming 
community for a game you never play.  Your email thread for responses from 
certain individuals has been going for almost 3 months you still have open 
issues.  Based on what I have seen I have to question your intentions. 
After observing your communication methods the past 3 months I don't care to 
go any further with you about the discussion of marketing Netrek.  A plan is 
in place, it is fair, it is being worked on, please be patient.

-Joe 



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug 23 19:12:44 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:12:44 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070824001244.GB4097@us.netrek.org>

G'day Rado,

In my usual once a working day fashion, I've reviewed this post of yours
included below in full to see if it requires reply, and I'm not replying
in detail because:

1.  Dave Ahn has replied as a member of the NIT already, addressing
most of the issues,

2.  Mark Mielke replied explicitly to your post, and your followup,
suggests that the only problem you have is inability to stay in touch,

3.  replies from others show that you are not part of my constituency,
in that you don't play or use the services that I provide, which is
something that I wasn't fully aware of,

4.  none of my constituency have asked these same questions, you're a
lone voice in the wilderness.  It would hurt my constituency to spend
time on your voice alone.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:51:41PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:57:21 +1000 -=
> 
> > > - How has the organisation changed to establish an authority to
> > > define netrek and control approved clients?
> > 
> > Four of us agreed to begin to set policy.
> > { ... }
> > I don't have the exact date, is it important?
> > { ... }
> >
> > > - Where/ what/ who is the authority that has appeared since then?
> > 
> > Carlos, Dave, Karthik and myself, in private communication.
> 
> =- James Cameron wrote on Sat 21.Jul'07 at 10:21:47 +1000 -=
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 10:28:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > > Need not be exact to the minute, but day, week, month, yes,
> > > because if it was made public by one of you at some point in
> > > _any_ way, I'd like to track down _how_ I missed that.
> > 
> > You weren't watching, apparently. It was mentioned in #netrek.
> > Keep reading those logs.
> 
> "It was mentioned...", have _you_ said this? To me, when I asked you
> and I responded to it?
> Or is somebody speaking for you? Or the council?
> 
> Given the noise that happens on #netrek and that I haven't been
> always present physically or technically, you'd have to tell me the
> exact date or week at least.
> 
> > > If it wasn't made public, why not?
> > 
> > Well, firstly, I can't speak for the council, so I can't announce
> > the existence of the council, it would have to be a motion of the
> > council to do so.
> 
> But when it comes to matters belonging to the council's area of
> concern you're fast (and often the only one) to respond.
> You're very public, you'd be a good representative for netrek or the
> council.
> 
> Then please suggest some way to make the council more public in its
> functionality. How to interact with the council when it's secret and
> no speaker in their name known?
> What benefit has a _secret_ council when public requests need public
> responses?
> 
> > Secondly, even if I did want to bypass that process, the last
> > thing I'd want to do is tell *you*.
> 
> So... you haven't told me before?!
> Nothing has changed, a secret council doesn't serve the public
> community with regard to direction and noise control.
> 
> > Now that I've seen how you respond, this confirms my hesitation.
> 
> Respond to what, how?
> What was bad about my reactions given your responses?
> 
> > You'd have to ask the council these questions. They aren't
> > interesting enough for me to bring them to council.
> 
> You are aware that you listed yourself as member of the council?
> Even though I acknowledge that you don't speak for the whole
> council, you can speak for yourself; when asked as member it's your
> turn to answer anyway: are you for or against a public speaker and
> message process to declare the council's purpose and publish
> decision progress?
> 
> The others can answer for themselves when asked; no worries, I can
> distinguish that.
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
> EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
> You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:38:52 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:38:52 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] creating netrek authority
In-Reply-To: <20070824001244.GB4097@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070721002147.GB5517@us.netrek.org>
	<20070701152440.GF5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702054823.GC10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716184002.GF12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095721.GG3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070720202859.GB25092@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070812155141.GF4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070824001244.GB4097@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070824203852.GC13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Fri 24.Aug'07 at 10:12:44 +1000 -=

> 1. Dave Ahn has replied as a member of the NIT already, addressing
> most of the issues,

Yes.
Are you aware that your answer "NIT" didn't apply to my question
about "borg" determination and control? So that status has _not_
changed since I asked about it 1st time.
Or have I misunderstood Dave?

> 2. Mark Mielke replied explicitly to your post, and your followup,
> suggests that the only problem you have is inability to stay in
> touch,

With regard to posting style "yes", or did you mean anything else?

> 3. replies from others show that you are not part of my
> constituency, in that you don't play or use the services that I
> provide, which is something that I wasn't fully aware of,

How would you/they know?
You offer many services.

> 4. none of my constituency have asked these same questions, you're
> a lone voice in the wilderness. It would hurt my constituency to
> spend time on your voice alone.

If you mean the NIT, agreed.
If you mean "borg", ... well.

> > > Now that I've seen how you respond, this confirms my
> > > hesitation.
> > 
> > Respond to what, how?
> > What was bad about my reactions given your responses?

If you care to explain, I'd still like to know the name of this
"how".

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:39:43 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:39:43 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070822233744.GA5519@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070822233744.GA5519@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070824203943.GD13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Thu 23.Aug'07 at  9:37:44 +1000 -=

> The current RSA based client program verification scheme used by
> Netrek is trivial to defeat. Upon analysis, the reason for this is
> that the attacker (user) is in direct control of the hardware on
> which the program runs, and can simply modify the instructions
> being executed. There is nothing to prevent or detect this. TC and
> TPM would detect this.

Are there many games out there using TCA (TC+TPM) against cheating?

BTW, is netrek's RSA scheme explained somewhere in simple words,
i.e. not the source code?

> Further, such modifications can be automated and distributed
> rapidly over the internet.

Just because you can't avoid misbehaviour altogether you prefer
not to make it harder and therefore rarer at least.
There is never complete safety, you can only make it harder.
Even TCA it isn't impossible to break, just _much_ harder.

Sure, things can spread easily on the net.
Once technical possibilities reach limits, social ones have to
apply.

> That we have not seen many only indicates that the market is
> small; there are so few Netrek players.

How was it different when there have been many _many_ more players
in the past?
I wasn't aware of many intentional cheaters.

> If growth occurs, the problem will be enlarged. Social controls
> fail when social structure is changed.

So it has to be changed then, _too_.
Just because the old one fails it doesn't mean another one can't do
better.

> Continuum is complying with that definition. The server supports,
> and may require, RSA validation. The word "may" in this context
> can mean either "has permission to" or "might".

Understood... but you consider it useless, so you could save the
observer from the possibility of being mislead that it actually is
used the way as described elsewhere.
Given your concern about not wanting to give wrong feelings of
security this would be consistent.
But I forgot... that isn't _really_ your concern.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:41:12 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:41:12 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070824204112.GF13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Niclas Fredriksson wrote on Wed 22.Aug'07 at 12:46:58 +0200 -=

> The only thing that people could be confused about is what label
> these people (James, Ahn, Sven, etc) have, but it's quite clear
> who they are, what they have contributed and what they are doing
> for the game.

Is that true, too, when there is much silence for a longer period of
time and no central place to carry those vital information?
How would you know that somebody has dropped out or changed mind
when there is little overall activity and publicity left?

> "The council" has several players who have played and/or developed
> this game for close to 15 years now, and their experience holds a
> lot of weight with the community.

I know, that's why I was asking them (or generally anyone who
considers himself an authority to answer my question about "borg").

> As far as you go, no one has seen you on a server or even know
> what your last name is or what country you're from, so it's not
> fair of you to expect people to just line up when you call for
> attention.

Aye... I wrongly assumed that in a generally silent place every post
would rise enough attention on its own.
Actually, James' initial reaction has built up that impression.

> If you want to help out, I suggest you join the team.

I do for the things that I can.

> There is no strict hierarchy in the netrek community.

That's probably the problem I see with providing widely accepted
fairness definition.

> There has never been and probably will never be a need for the
> netrek community to be as defined as the leadership of a country.

So I should safely ignore any and all "borg" complaints?
If I'm not mistaken, even you once in a while used that word.

> > So? Has this any influence on the validity of logic?
> 
> If you don't know the game, its community, its development phase
> or its code people will be quite skeptical of your attempts to
> change everything.

"Everything"?
It's just a little bit. At least it seems so.

> Also, you seem to have a tendency to type a lot of words without actually 
> saying much.

Hmm... I'm sorry for this ... at least initially I started with
simple questions.

> You should focus on shortening down your postings and making the
> information more compact. That's generally how you discuss things
> on a mailing list.

Heh, I know, that's how things start, but then they get complicated
by many participants, opinions and details (and time constraints
forcing one to combine answers).
 It slowly developed and got out of control.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:40:13 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:40:13 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
References: <20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070824204013.GE13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 15:41:41 -0500 -=

>> As I said, 2 of them were only once each, and those were the
>> useful ones, but only after the personlized version. The one with
>> "several" times was contradicting himself.
>
> So you received answers, but not all were what you wanted to hear.

I meant the format was unfortunate == too slow (due to being busy or
uninterested) or bad == contradictory (playing games).
The content (the "answers") is fine (once I got them or figured it
out), because no answer would have been "wrong". I was asking what
the status is _for themselves_, not to please me or anyone else.

I would have been happier if _they_ had taken the roles to define
and control "borg" (since _they_ probably had more experience about
what qualifies), but anyone else is fine, too, after they declined.
I'm just looking for _someone_! Preferably those with more
experience than I have (when it comes to Bronco).

>> There is inter-style and intra-style fairness.
>> One is solved, the other not.
>
> Which is solved and which is not?

Intra-sytle, i.e. "borg" definition is not solved.
Dave has explicitely answered inter-style.

> What process is being blocked?

Establishing a social and technical system to have "fair" games with
regard to "borg", once we know what "borg" definitely means.
For each of the styles.

>> So? Has this any influence on the validity of logic?
>
> Of course. A majority of the community does not reside on the dev
> list or on #netrek. They are on the servers. How can someone truly
> know the validity of their logic when making decisions about
> restructuring the Netrek community if they don't interact with the
> players on the servers?

Has the "borg" issue changed since I stopped playing regularly?
	(as other veterans who are still around)
Aren't there still features in one or the other client considered
"too much" for "netrek"?
Without the mentioned system it's just a matter of time that either
accusations and bad blood rise again or real cheaters come up?
(today it's more likely than in the past, as we see lamers DoS
Netrek servers or spoiled Strugeon players losing ground on "real
netrek" servers and possibly going the simple way of the dark side
to catch up: when the in-game power-ups are gone, technical might
fill the gap)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:41:35 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:41:35 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] control and approval of clients
In-Reply-To: <45ab86180708180737x37128b99k733fb18ce3a392d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070817014547.GA4876@us.netrek.org>
	<20070817023907.GA23397@orion.netrek.org>
	<20070818142816.GG4452@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<45ab86180708180737x37128b99k733fb18ce3a392d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070824204135.GH13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Bill Balcerski wrote on Sat 18.Aug'07 at 10:37:15 -0400 -=

> Client authors add features.
> Features are made known to the 2 server operators (Karthik and James)
> via either pre-release access to changes, or in the case of MacTrek,
> release notes :).  Said server operators request features be removed
> (rare) or feature packeted (often).  Client authors mostly cooperate.

The not "mostly" cases is what I'm aiming for, see response to Joe.

> In the end it will always be the server operators who say what is
> and isn't borg.

But how do the servers know the clients are not doing more than
agreed on?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:44:39 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:44:39 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-DAV1440720F168ADAE6DF1AABCBD60@phx.gbl>
References: <20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV1440720F168ADAE6DF1AABCBD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070824204439.GJ13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Joe Evango wrote on Wed 22.Aug'07 at 17:21:12 -0700 -=

> Also, my posts were before you started the thread in May about the
> ousting of certain individuals who have proven to be the backbone
> of this community and volunteered an incredible amount of their
> time and resources to support Netrek.

It's pointless to go further on this track as long as you see me as
enemy, since you _still_ are completely mistaken.

> They were before you called for the restructuring of a gaming
> community for a game you never play.

How would you know that I never play(ed) it?
Besides ... you want to attract newbies, right?
Isn't the view from an outsider perspective more useful than an
insider who's already integrated into the system and therefore
prejudiced about his favourite game?

> Your email thread for responses from certain individuals has been
> going for almost 3 months you still have open issues.

It's not my fault that answers don't come at all or a
contradictory.

> After observing your communication methods the past 3 months I
> don't care to go any further with you about the discussion of
> marketing Netrek.

This then only means that you're scared of critique of your plans or
don't want help by anyone else (excl. me)?
You couldn't lose anything, but only gain, and still you decide for
yourself what you take or leave.

> A plan is in place, it is fair, it is being worked on, please be
> patient.

... hmm, wasn't there once a call for speeding up when the mactrek
client became popular?
Has this opportunity passed already and you're preparing for the
next boost?

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Fri Aug 24 15:41:19 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:41:19 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <46CB5230.1030406@mark.mielke.cc>
References: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
	<46CB5230.1030406@mark.mielke.cc>
Message-ID: <20070824204119.GG13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Mark Mielke wrote on Tue 21.Aug'07 at 16:59:28 -0400 -=

> As a mildly interested sympathetic ear

Interested in what? Specifically or generally?

> {...} I don't understand what Rado wants, or why he feels James is
> failing him.

He was giving contradictory and wrong answers.

> Rado: Your theories are simply not how open source projects work.
> If you tried your techniques on the linux kernel list you would be
> far more loudly criticized.

Heh, I think a kernel has not the "fairness" problems of a game. ;)
So I wouldn't even start such a thing there.

> Nobody here is questioning any of the "rulers" we have today
> except for Rado. I don't see a single person supporting Rado.

I'm not questioning them.
They are refusing to do what is needed for "fairness" per response
to Joe.
They are free to refuse, I don't blame them, it's (much) work and
they're too busy already.
But when they decline, why not have somebody else try?

> Rado: Perhaps this should tell you something?

Yes, that it's hard to overcome prejudice.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 17:36:14 2007
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:36:14 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
In-Reply-To: <20070824204439.GJ13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV1440720F168ADAE6DF1AABCBD60@phx.gbl>
	<20070824204439.GJ13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <65631e800708241536y47bac10aw58d61111f010438c@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/24/07, Rado S <regrado at web.de> wrote:
>
>
> Isn't the view from an outsider perspective more useful than an
> insider who's already integrated into the system and therefore
> prejudiced about his favourite game?


No, not in general.  Rado, I think you ought to contribute before calling
for changes.  This is a meritocracy, not a cheerocracy.  People in Open
Source projects don't want feedback from people who have no stake.  This is
not to flame you, it's just how things work.

Contribute on the Paradise side.  Get more developers involved.  Organize
games.  Get some momentum going.  Then, if there are issues involved with
Paradise in regards to Bronco (such as getting Paradise servers added to the
metaserver, merging the codebase, etc), try to get them resolved one at a
time.  As far as I can tell your main contributions are in regards to the
attempted Paradise resurrection - stay with that, work on that, and stop
harassing the Bronco/Sturgeon guys about stuff that has nothing to do with
your efforts.

I respect you, but to be honest your frequent and voluminous responses
aren't helping anyone, and are only serving to alienate others from
yourself.  Whether or not your ideas and concerns have merit is of no
concern to anyone here, as you haven't earned any credibility in the
community.  To clarify, in a meritocracy people respect those that add more
than just talk.  Given that you've only been talking and haven't really
added much to the general effort, people are disinclined to listen to
anything you have to say, and they're certainly going to ignore you or react
with hostility whenever you call out for drastic changes.

Stop with your arguing, everyone is done with these droll, circuitous, and
tedious discussions.  In fact, what I keep seeing is person after person
responding to the effect of "I'm not going to talk to you any more".  That's
sad that you've let it get to this, but to be honest you have no one to
blame but yourself.  I can understand that it can be difficult at times to
get the older members of a community to answer questions that they deem
tedious, but you have to look at it from their perspective too - they don't
know you, they don't play with you, and they aren't getting any help from
you.  You have to come to them, you can't expect them to come to you.

Personally I'd like to have more productive discussions.  You've given your
opinion (many, many times).  They've said theirs.  They don't agree with
you, you're not happy with that.  Deal with it and move on.  Personally I'm
at the point where I'm sick and tired of listening to these dumb debates go
on and on.  I no longer read them (well, I read this one) as there's no
point to it.

I'd like to have further discussions with you Rado, but keep in mind that I
am busy with many other things in my life and if you keep arguing
incessantly on these mailing lists I'll be forced to not interact with you.
You may enjoy the drama, but I certainly don't, and if it continues I'll
ignore everything you say.  Please don't make it so that I have to do that.

Jeffrey.

-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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From ahn at orion.netrek.org  Fri Aug 24 18:12:02 2007
From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:12:02 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070824204119.GG13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
	<46CB5230.1030406@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070824204119.GG13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070824231202.GA21960@orion.netrek.org>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 10:41:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> They are refusing to do what is needed for "fairness" per response
> to Joe.

A lack of response does not mean a lack of interest nor does it mean
refusal.  Perhaps not everyone agrees with your definition of what is
"needed" for this community.

"Fairness" is a moving target, and the foundation for it has always been
the leagues (or clue games, if you will).  If this answer doesn't make
sense or seems deficient, then you may wish to research into the history
of Netrek and why RES-RSA (and its predecessor reserved.c) was
introduced to begin with.  The scope and intent of RES-RSA has never
been as broad as is being assumed or claimed by some of the people on
this list.

On an earlier post, you asked:
> How can we help you? (other than being patient)

I would suggest individual action to benefit the community in a
productive way.  How you interpret my suggestion is entirely up to you.
Plenty of people in this community seem to be contributing very
positively with little to no interaction with me, and that should be so:
fewer bottlenecks and more respectful collaboration.

I stated in an earlier post months ago, and I'll state it again.  Netrek
is not the same as it was, and it shouldn't be.  It is up to the current
active community to define the game and sustain it.

Dave



From niclas at acc.umu.se  Sun Aug 26 13:14:47 2007
From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:14:47 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070824204112.GF13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070824204112.GF13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708262006280.10138@shaka.acc.umu.se>

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007, Rado S wrote:

> =- Niclas Fredriksson wrote on Wed 22.Aug'07 at 12:46:58 +0200 -=
>
>> The only thing that people could be confused about is what label
>> these people (James, Ahn, Sven, etc) have, but it's quite clear
>> who they are, what they have contributed and what they are doing
>> for the game.
>
> Is that true, too, when there is much silence for a longer period of
> time and no central place to carry those vital information?

Yes.

> How would you know that somebody has dropped out or changed mind
> when there is little overall activity and publicity left?

There is no need to know exactly who's been doing any active work in, say, 
the past month in the netrek council. It's not a paid job and these people 
will do what they can when they can.

> I know, that's why I was asking them (or generally anyone who considers 
> himself an authority to answer my question about "borg").

Anyone in the netrek community can answer your questions about borgs. 
However some might argue that only the key holder's or server gods' 
opinions actually hold any weight though.

>> If you want to help out, I suggest you join the team.
>
> I do for the things that I can.

I don't see you doing anything but making a lot of people read and type a 
lot on this mailing list.

>> There has never been and probably will never be a need for the netrek 
>> community to be as defined as the leadership of a country.
>
> So I should safely ignore any and all "borg" complaints? If I'm not 
> mistaken, even you once in a while used that word.

I don't follow your train of thought here.

>> You should focus on shortening down your postings and making the 
>> information more compact. That's generally how you discuss things on a 
>> mailing list.
>
> Heh, I know, that's how things start, but then they get complicated by 
> many participants, opinions and details (and time constraints forcing 
> one to combine answers). It slowly developed and got out of control.

Your problem is you seem to feel like you have to comment on exactly 
everything someone writes in a post, so your posts will grow exponentially 
as the thread gets bigger. You should focus on staying to the key issue of 
the post and not write excessive information like the one above. Instead 
of keep asking questions that have already been answered and commenting on 
and writing things that aren't relevant to the thread, stay on the subject 
(like I haven't with this paragraph). This is the last time I will give 
you hints on this.

-- Niclas


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 27 00:43:29 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:43:29 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron
In-Reply-To: <20070812152228.GB4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800706201201n523763eetabbd9a59cd51f3d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070716183753.GB12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094322.GC3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812152228.GB4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070827054329.GA5442@us.netrek.org>

G'day Rado,

I've nothing to say in particular to the questions in your message
quoted in full below, but in general my answer is that since you haven't
accepted my advice on how to communicate, you have become a noise
source, and so I'm throttling the time you waste in my life ... 

I'm granting you one reply per issue per weekday, so it would probably
benefit your communication if you chose wisely what to ask, and avoid
asking things that you do not need an answer to yet.

You have 16 other messages in my work queue, so it will be at least 16
weekdays before I reply to any reply to this message.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:22:28PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:43:22 +1000 -=
> 
> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:37:53PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > > I can't help it that issues put in simple words don't mean the
> > > same for everybody and therefore need clarification, but also
> > > need patience and attention on the receiving/ requesting side
> > > when given.
> > 
> > You can help it. It is your responsibility as well as ours. Simple
> > words do not have a common meaning. But it takes more round trips
> > during communication than you have been willing to give.
> 
> What makes you believe I'm not willing to do what it takes to
> clarify things? Afterall, I'm still asking and answering.
> 
> > By batching your replies you make this clarification impractical.
> > Limit yourself to small doses of communication, regularly. You
> > must learn the words to use, and the only way to do that is to
> > correct your words.
> 
> Correction is fine, if it's explicit and lead by good example.
> 
> Small doses, regularly: this can be a problem when I miss the
> activity time of a thread and then people lose focus on what matter
> but get lost in off-topic stuff.
> 
> When I couldn't follow live, I wanted to speed up the catching up to
> sustain the general momentum of current activity, so I gave
> explanations or detail in advance, so you wouldn't have to ask that
> even later.
> 
> > > > Volunteer your efforts in something as a method of building
> > > > credibility.
> > > 
> > > I thought I had as far as it was possible ... and time
> > > permitted, currently too busy to even respond faster.
> > 
> > If you are too busy, then leave this task for later, otherwise in
> > your haste you may hurt yourself.
> 
> I've always _taken_ my time exactly to avoid damage (to anyone).
> That's the reason why things have become as slow and big as they
> were.
>  How can I make up for taking my time without making answers bigger
> or giving them in "batched" mode to catch up what came in the
> meantime?
> 
> Speed, size, frequency, thought: which of them to sacrifice in
> favour of the others? What serves the cause of timely but satisfying
> results better?
>  I can't go faster (respond live when you "6-12 hours +/- off
> people" wake up and get together) in general, but also I was
> exceptionally busy in the past 2+ months, so even catching up
> afterwards was delayed. (in April, when the issue (re-)started, I
> had more time, but this changed soon thereafter)
> 
> You want small + often (correlating to fast) because it suits your
> daily routine. I can't (couldn't) provide that.
> Independent of that, I prefer reasoned responses, which can often
> mean the opposite of fast.
> 
> Too many + big is bad for you, too fast + emotional/ spontaneous is
> bad for me, because the issue requires longterm consideration, not
> what suits just now.
> 
> Whatever I do, it is wrong for you, because I don't happen to have
> the same activity cycle as you have (had).
>  How can we get together then, without losing even more time for
> split and stretched discussion, possibly losing focus/ context/
> interest because it takes too long?
> 
> In "how the director idea started" you gave the answer to what
> happens when it's stretched too far without carrying over the
> context in bigger posts: you keep forgetting what it was about.
> 
> You once said you'd like things to change. But only when it's not
> you who has to change?
> (I mean that for posting style as well as netrek management)
> How else should changes in general happen when not at the source of
> power and direction?
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
> EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
> You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Aug 27 19:05:06 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:05:06 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?!
In-Reply-To: <20070812152651.GC4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812152651.GC4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070828000505.GA5367@us.netrek.org>

G'day Rado,

I've reviewed your post quoted in full below, and I agree with what you
said.  Where you have asked a question of the form "scenario 1 or
scenario 2" my answer is "yes."  I expect this closes your issue with my
level of involvement?

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:26:52PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 19:53:37 +1000 -=
> 
> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:39:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > > > { client, server, community hats }
> > > ... but at the same time you reject responsiblity and commitment
> > > to pick up or establish an official representative role [...]
> > 
> > Yes, I reject any responsibility to you to pick up or establish an
> > official representative role.
> 
> That's not to only me, but all of netrek.
> You wear those hats of power, but don't want to be taken responsible
> for what "netrek" is, or have somebody do it for you?
> 
> Is "netrek" for you a game framework that you just happen to use in
> one flavour for yourself (and those who happen to like yours), or a
> clearly defined set of rules to mean 1 ("the") game for all (with
> likewise clearly defined "mods" like hockey, paradise, ...)?
>  (or what else?)
> 
> In the former case such a role makes no sense for "the game", but
> likewise wouldn't be necessary since "borg" and other name calling
> is pointless then, because there wouldn't be such a thing like "the
> game".
> 
> By now, I guess I know _your_ answer, but that question is
> unanswered by the rest of the list of resource holders.
> (or in general by the community at large)
> 
> > Not sure what you mean by commitment, but I guess you meant "lack
> > commitment".
> 
> ... not just lack, but reject it for this purpose? If it were only
> lack, that could be changed, but you deny that change by conviction
> on the matter rather than antipathy for my way of bringing it up,
> right?
> Or is it just because of antipathy?
> 
> > Then you go on to define the role:
> > 
> > > to respond to requests as needed, make judgement calls more
> > > explicit and public to establish a "conforming client + server"
> > > system (technical and social) to extend your fairness to _all_
> > > users independent of their client?
> > 
> > It would involve quite a lot of work and challenge. The role would
> > be sociological and political. Have you anyone available to fill
> > this role? The role does not interest me.
> 
> Fine, I never claimed that the owners are the only possible.
> I even suggested others to be the active part in their place.
> I just considered them the 1st choice -- if they wanted such a role
> to exist at all (independent of who'd run it) -- to make reaction
> times between decisions and resources shorter.
> 
> > Maybe you should ask Zach?
> 
> I don't mind anyone doing it, as long as there is a big picture
> leading it (consistency), publicity and activity (to provide
> "fairness" within and across netrek styles).
> 
> But the role makes no sense without backup by the owners to support
> and realize decisions, even if unpopular at 1st (by perception of
> noise, not necessarily by number of people and relevance of reasons).
> 
> -- 
> ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
> EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
> You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 28 01:20:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:20:19 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise server 3.1p0 client 3.3p0 released
Message-ID: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1104

(I didn't see any announce here, apologies if I missed it).

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 13:40:40 2007
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:40:40 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise server 3.1p0 client 3.3p0 released
In-Reply-To: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>

Oh sorry, I don't know the etiquette and I figured that crossposting the
releases to netrek-dev might be a faux pas.  :)

If people are interested I can post such things here as well.  Not that this
release is really "much" of anything - it's mostly just a freshening of the
source tree combined with a few small patches.

Jeffrey.

On 8/28/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1104
>
> (I didn't see any announce here, apologies if I missed it).
>
>
-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 28 16:57:42 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:57:42 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise server 3.1p0 client 3.3p0 released
In-Reply-To: <65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>
	<65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070828215742.GA3917@us.netrek.org>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 01:40:40PM -0500, Jeffrey Watts wrote:
> Oh sorry, I don't know the etiquette and I figured that crossposting the
> releases to netrek-dev might be a faux pas.  :)

It is still Netrek as far as I am concerned.  When the list was named
Vanilla, I'd say no.  But it is named Netrek.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Aug 28 22:19:40 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:19:40 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070829031940.GA3694@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 05:35:53PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> =- James Cameron wrote on Wed 18.Jul'07 at 20:11:16 +1000 -=
> 
> > On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:27PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > >  Allowing authors also to bless leaves it up to whom to decide what
> > > "legal" netrek is? Based on what? The loudest "borg" shouters?
> > 
> > Back when RSA was in heavy use, the loudest shouters were indeed
> > those who set the policy. Which in the absence of a social
> > mechanism or leadership, or deliberative assembly, is how any
> > group behaves. Only if such a social mechanism works can the
> > technical mechanism have any significant effect.
> 
> Right.
> That's why I asked for this social organization.
> If it exists, to take action.
> If it doesn't, to create it.
> 
> To which you said "let's have it", but later "I won't do it nor
> surrender to/ support it".
>  Which is fine, you're not obliged nor required as long as you let
> others try, but you considered it as attack against you:
>  won't do yourself, but neither let others?

I agree.

> And the other people "in charge" didn't even react at all for a long
> time (some still haven't).

Shrug.  Not my problem.  I generally react when the issue interests me
or when things are said about me that are wrong.

> Which way to go? Or just stay where we are?

Shrug.  It's not an important problem to me.

> I'm tired of the "borg" shouters crossfire and general "my game is
> the only that counts, do away with everything else" attitude while
> nobody declares what this one game is and takes action to quiet the
> noise.
> 
> I prefer to have "noise" (in the sense of public official
> announcements) by a well defined leadership rather than by some
> random, small, occasionally irrational mob.

Chuckle.  This is a mailing list, not a parliamentary senate.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug 30 01:34:10 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:34:10 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070813185052.GB9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<46BF97F0.4020507@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070813185052.GB9144@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070830063410.GA17361@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2007 at 08:50:52PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> [...] , or at least the interests of the powers if there can't be
> a 100% safe technical solution (as James requires for client control).

I do not require a 100% safe technical solution for client control.  I
simply do not think client control is important.  I would prefer there
be no client control.  Protocol control is the important barrier.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Aug 30 23:18:00 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:18:00 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron (sf)
In-Reply-To: <20070822184508.GB15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org>
	<20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070822000052.GC3749@us.netrek.org>
	<20070822184508.GB15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070831041759.GA4085@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:45:08PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> But the admins have the final say.
> Or what for is the differentiation between admins and non-admins?

The only thing admins seem to be able to do that non-admins cannot is
change the services provided to the project by SourceForge.

> Why not make everyone admins then?

Please read the SourceForge documentation.  It's not for me to explain
it to you.

> BTW, I notice you still don't adjust the subject to reflect the
> content as you once advised me... don't get lax on your own ideals,
> when you specifically separate them by subject, it was good advice.

I don't see this as a change of subject, and I know that some readers
are using thread killing.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jka at inthewings.net  Fri Aug 31 11:24:11 2007
From: jka at inthewings.net (Jon Akers)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:24:11 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
Message-ID: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>

I have run into a problem compiling the cow client on a new machine I 
have. The key input file is not found for some reason, and I was 
wondering if anyone could shed some light on this:


checking for sdl-config... /usr/bin/sdl-config
checking for SDL - version >= 1.2.4... yes
checking for Mix_OpenAudio in -lSDL_mixer... yes
configure: creating ./config.status
config.status: creating system.mk
config.status: error: cannot find input file: key.mk.in
jka at kiona:~/netrek-client-cow-3.2.2$


Now, for some background on the machine itself. This is a Lemote Fulong 
machine, which is a Chinese mips based machine that is 95% mipsel 
compatible. It is currently running a semi-stripped down version of debian.

-- 
Jon Akers
jka at inthewings.net