From tanner at real-time.com  Tue Jan  2 02:46:54 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 02:46:54 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make lin...
	(and 1 more)
Message-ID: <1167727614.271572.6681.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>

Fri Dec 29 14:02:40 CST 2006  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  *   * Clean up of control file to make linda and lintian happy
    * Upgrade to Standards-Version: 3.7.2
    * Small change to extended description
    * Conversion of rules to cdbs
    * The common licenses (GPL, BSD, Artistic, etc) have been moved from
    * /usr/doc/copyright to 
      /usr/share/common-licenses. Copyright files should be updated
    * trekon uses #!/bin/csh. The Debian policy for scripts explicitly warns
    * against using csh 
      and tcsh as scripting languages.
    * Renamed init to netrek-server-vanilla.init to work with cdbs
    * Added debian/manpages and created netrekd.1, Debian policy requires all
    * binaries to have 
      a manpage.
    * setpath is a shellscript missing magic cookie, added #!/bin/sh to comply
    * with Debian policy
    * The postrm de-registers an /etc/init.d script which has not been registered
    * in the postinst 
      script before. Comments in the postinst ask for a debconf configuration
      option. Commenting out the de-register to make lintian happy.
    * Added symlink between netrekd and newstartd
  

Tue Jan  2 02:37:45 CST 2007  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  * Fix to check for configure in res-rsa.
  
  >Doesn't build on etch either, in pbuilder.  Did before your patch.
  >Maybe I'm doing something wrong with my pbuilder?  tests/build-debian
  >has my notes.
  
  Missed check for configure in the res-rsa directory. Changed the pre-build 
  rules to check for it.
  
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From tanner at real-time.com  Tue Jan  2 03:00:05 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 03:00:05 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make
	lin... (and 1 more)
References: <1167727614.271572.6681.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <end6uk$qb7$1@sea.gmane.org>

Bob Tanner wrote:

> Fri Dec 29 14:02:40 CST 2006 ?Bob Tanner
> <tanner at real-time.com> * ? * Clean up of control
> file to make linda and lintian happy * Upgrade to Standards-Version: 3.7.2
> * Small change to extended description
> * Conversion of rules to cdbs
> * The common licenses (GPL, BSD, Artistic, etc) have been moved from

zowie, lots more sent then I wanted. Sorry.

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From tanner at real-time.com  Tue Jan  2 03:02:09 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 03:02:09 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make
	lin... (and 1 more)
References: <1167727614.271572.6681.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <end72h$qb7$2@sea.gmane.org>

Bob Tanner wrote:

> hunk ./Vanilla/debian/rules 48
> -
> +???????if [ ! -x res-rsa/configure ]; then \
> +???????????????(cd res-rsa; autoconf) ;\
> + ? ?fi
> hunk ./Vanilla/debian/rules 53
> +???????/usr/bin/debconf-updatepo
> }
> 

Just wanted to submit this patch to fix Quozl FTBS report.

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From tanner at real-time.com  Thu Jan  4 18:33:24 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:33:24 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make lin...
	(and 2 more)
Message-ID: <1167957204.623595.17603.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>

Fri Dec 29 14:02:40 CST 2006  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  *   * Clean up of control file to make linda and lintian happy
    * Upgrade to Standards-Version: 3.7.2
    * Small change to extended description
    * Conversion of rules to cdbs
    * The common licenses (GPL, BSD, Artistic, etc) have been moved from
    * /usr/doc/copyright to 
      /usr/share/common-licenses. Copyright files should be updated
    * trekon uses #!/bin/csh. The Debian policy for scripts explicitly warns
    * against using csh 
      and tcsh as scripting languages.
    * Renamed init to netrek-server-vanilla.init to work with cdbs
    * Added debian/manpages and created netrekd.1, Debian policy requires all
    * binaries to have 
      a manpage.
    * setpath is a shellscript missing magic cookie, added #!/bin/sh to comply
    * with Debian policy
    * The postrm de-registers an /etc/init.d script which has not been registered
    * in the postinst 
      script before. Comments in the postinst ask for a debconf configuration
      option. Commenting out the de-register to make lintian happy.
    * Added symlink between netrekd and newstartd
  

Tue Jan  2 02:37:45 CST 2007  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  * Fix to check for configure in res-rsa.
  
  >Doesn't build on etch either, in pbuilder.  Did before your patch.
  >Maybe I'm doing something wrong with my pbuilder?  tests/build-debian
  >has my notes.
  
  Missed check for configure in the res-rsa directory. Changed the pre-build 
  rules to check for it.
  

Thu Jan  4 18:31:30 CST 2007  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  * start_on_boot_debconf
  
    * Created debconf template to ask the user if they want to start netrekd on 
      boot
    * Added debconf template to display error if chown fails in postinst script
    * Removed de-register from postrm, dh_installinit/cdbs automatically takes
    * care of removing init.d files
    * Added db_purge to postrm,just as a safety measure, debhelper should take
    * care of this.
    * Started framework for i18n support in the debconf templates
  
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From tanner at real-time.com  Thu Jan  4 18:59:50 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:59:50 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make
	lin... (and 2 more)
References: <1167957204.623595.17603.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <enk7u6$25o$1@sea.gmane.org>

Bob Tanner wrote:

> Fri Dec 29 14:02:40 CST 2006 ?Bob Tanner
> <tanner at real-time.com> * ? * Clean up of control
> file to make linda and lintian happy * Upgrade to Standards-Version: 3.7.2
> 

NOTE, I built this on sid, as the changelog file from pristine darcs states
the package is "unstable", which equates to sid.

Unless we wanna do debian override files and what not, we should
change "unstable" to "testing" in the control file and build on etch (as of
01/2007) or do a naming convention for each release, like:

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-2) unstable; urgency=low

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-1~etch) testing; urgency=low

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-1~sarge) stable; urgency=low

The issue would be what is newer? ~etch or ~sarge?

If I'm running sarge, dist-upgrade to etch, will apt-get do the right thing?

There is a convoluted long document on how apt-get figures it out OR how to
override the whole thing in your pool directory.

I just found it easier to artificially inflate the release number for sid
(unstable) and -1 on etch and -2 on sarge. But I'm open to suggestions.

Example:

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-2) unstable; urgency=low

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-2~etch) testing; urgency=low

netrek-server-vanilla (2.12.0-1~sarge) stable; urgency=low


-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Jan  4 19:50:00 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:50:00 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make
	lin... (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <1167957204.623595.17603.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
References: <1167957204.623595.17603.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20070105014959.GD26988@us.netrek.org>

Taken.  Taggged, and pushed.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Jan  4 21:44:55 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:44:55 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: * Clean up of control file to make
	lin... (and 2 more)
In-Reply-To: <enk7u6$25o$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <1167957204.623595.17603.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
	<enk7u6$25o$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20070105034455.GF26988@us.netrek.org>

G'day Bob,

I don't rightly understand the distribution specific versioning issue,
nor the debian override files.  Ideally we need to be able to build the
package for sarge, etch and sid ... and hopefully once we get that
defined it shouldn't need further fiddling?

Perhaps we should find out how other packages handle building three
distribution flavours from the same source repository?  Maybe move
debian to debian-${distribution} and move it prior to package build?

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From tanner at real-time.com  Thu Jan  4 23:28:28 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 23:28:28 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: fix_missing_template
Message-ID: <1167974908.758469.16617.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>

Thu Jan  4 23:15:08 CST 2007  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
  * fix_missing_template
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From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Fri Jan  5 03:04:54 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 04:04:54 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s
	message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:55:26 +0100")
References: <20061205004408.GB4928@us.netrek.org>
	<0q3b7tovsp.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <0qtzz5alop.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Rado S <rado at math.uni-hamburg.de> writes:
> Then maybe you should explain what "good enough" means (for you).

Many things can be good enough, but here's what I like about the geno site:

Good background colors and fonts,
especially light fonts/dark background;
gives it more of a space/sf/startrek look. 

functional yet non-intrusive menus,
nice banner art,
good overall structure, 
rotating screenshots and hints,
archives of articles about the game,
no javascript required,
no flash required.

A wiki can do all of these things (except some need javascript), 
but we'd be building them from close to scratch when we already have them. 

Besides the old site, another site I think is good enough is
www.memory-alpha.org; it's the only pretty-looking wiki I've seen to date.

My standards may be higher than average, but given that we 
already have something that meets them, I can't think I'm 
being unreasonable here. And I'm not even saying "No Wiki."

I'm saying "Old and easy to support site first, because
we need something quickly and because I'm not sure we have
resources to support a wiki."

> Attraction should be done by functionality of the code and appeal
> of the product itself rather than the website. Having some
> screenshots on any website system should cover that.

The website is part of the product.
Documentation and support is part of a product.

A few screenshots is not enough; if the world worked like that,
the magazine advertising industry would not exist and web design
wouldn't be a career skill. 

We are in a sales and marketing competition for people's attention. 
You may not like that, but it is true. You could think of it as
evolutionary competition if you like. 

We're losing, badly, to the point where the game is a shadow of what
it was seven years ago, even though the possible player population
is probably ten times the size. In a world where a quarter-million
copies of WoW sell in the first week, and the internet chess and Go
servers are populated by world-class players, we probably don't have
a thousand regular players, maybe not even three hundred. 

Evolutionarily speaking, we need every bit of plumage we can get. 
We need buzz/mindshare/awareness that we exist. We need friends
to talk us up to potential players. 

Saying the game will survive on its on merits and doesn't need the
best possible website to help provide outside-of-game support is like
saying you are likely to be able to walk into a bar having not
showered or changed clothes for a month and get laid just because
you're great in bed. That might fly for a hot new first person
shooter, but for a middle-aged average-looking dude like netrek, we
need to look presentable before someone is gonna follow us home for a
drink and find out how cool we really are.

Lots of people will choose whether or not to download a client based
on how the website looks, and on how good its support documentation 
is; the game's merits won't even enter into it until you get people
interested. 

I'm not suggesting armani suits here; I'm just saying something that
looking like we just came off a construction site is not gonna cut it. 

>> We should have a design that looks as good as the genocide content.
>
> (hmm, maybe I should turn back on all the fancy/ flashy things to
> see what you mean which I normally turn off to save my eyes ;)

I have javascript and flash off (noscript extension to firefox). 
My browser does obey style sheets, and will display animated gifs.

Part of why I like the geno site is that it pretty straightforward.
I'm very much about function before form; in this case, selling the
game is part of the function. I don't think we need grotesque 
plugin or script stuff to do it, though a movie or two as ancillary
content might be ok. 

>> (Do we even have anyone who knows how to make a wiki look good?
>> And how long will it take them to do so?
>
> Wikis with stylesheets support exist, images can be placed as you
> like, what else does it need?

To be there, and to be supported. (Though the rotating images and
hints plus download box on the current site are nice). 

Supported means backups, upgrades, passwords, people who know how to 
do attractive design for our particular wiki and have access to 
do so. 

> If the community can't sustain itself, then it need not be kept
> alive artificially. 

Call me old-fashioned, but if I'm in critical condition, I'd
rather be on a respirator for a few months than get kicked out into
the street. The decisions we make right now may determine whether or
not the community can support itself. 

  --akb



From inmx027 at math.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Jan  5 13:09:07 2007
From: inmx027 at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:09:07 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <0qtzz5alop.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<0q4ps6nrlj.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qtzz5alop.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20070105190906.GB2819@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri  5.Jan'07 at  4:04:54 -0500 -=

> I'm saying "Old and easy to support site first, because we need
> something quickly and because I'm not sure we have resources to
> support a wiki."

I fail to see the need for speed here.
As said before: there have been boosts in the past, which haven't
been followed up/ supported by website campaigns. And still we're
here. Converting the old data to the new system won't take ages,
so we'll have the basic support covered (soon, to support any
current activitiy).

The reason why this discussion began is that a single point of
failure failed. With darcs you still need some kind of single
person to approve things: content-wise, not technically.
I guess there will be more wiki-editors besides me.
(based on observation on list and irc)

> > Attraction should be done by functionality of the code and
> > appeal of the product itself rather than the website. Having
> > some screenshots on any website system should cover that.
> 
> The website is part of the product.
> Documentation and support is part of a product.

Aye, agree.

> A few screenshots is not enough;

Didn't mean to say this. They are supposed to be the eye-catchers,
the support and documentation comes through the content of the
website. Structure and layout (within a page and the whole site)
are of course important for that, but this is no argument against
wiki, this can be accomplished with a wiki, too.

> if the world worked like that, the magazine advertising industry
> would not exist and web design wouldn't be a career skill.

I could do very well without that waste. ;)

> We are in a sales and marketing competition for people's
> attention. You may not like that, but it is true. You could
> think of it as evolutionary competition if you like.

This is true.

> We're losing, badly, to the point where the game is a shadow of
> what it was seven years ago, even though the possible player
> population is probably ten times the size.

And this is for several reasons.

One being: we have a MUCH bigger competition now, since others
have noticed this market and try to squeeze the most money out of
it. It's not like players have a choice between netrek and xpilot
and we're losing to them (only), but there is a _myriad_ of other
games which can occupy people. We're just a small fish in the ocean.
We might want to get bigger, but how far can we get without the
budgets/ manpower of commercial companies for ad campaigns?

Another: the more choices exist, the more people will find "their"
game that meets exactly what they are looking for, and netrek is
_not_ the exact match for everyone, not even a significant number.

> In a world where a quarter-million copies of WoW sell in the
> first week, and the internet chess and Go servers are populated
> by world-class players, we probably don't have a thousand
> regular players, maybe not even three hundred.

We can't compare with those. Those are already lost for us. They
won't give up WoW for netrek no matter what we do. Same for the
others.
Netrek is _not_ a mass market product.
There are many more-flashy things, and easier to get into
(learning curve), and less involving (quicky games 5-15min for
lunch breaks).

1st we'd have to define our target audience, and then adjust our
efforts to reach it. Not to forget look around us who are our
direct competitors: those who cover the same niche as netrek does.
Those we have to beat, not ego-shooters, WoW or MineSweeper/
MoorHuhn- quality.

> We need buzz/mindshare/awareness that we exist.
> We need friends to talk us up to potential players.

Yes. Many have said so in the past before you did now.

> Saying the game will survive on its on merits and doesn't need the
> best possible website to help provide outside-of-game support

I didn't say that! :)
I said that this doesn't exclude wiki as the system to do it.

> { getting laid when not showering for months }
> That might fly for a hot new first person shooter,

"hot new" != "having not showered or changed clothes for a month" ;)
When they come out fresh, they have some nice startup.
But then ... they suffer the same as we do now: lasting support.

> but for a middle-aged average-looking dude like netrek, we need
> to look presentable before someone is gonna follow us home for a
> drink and find out how cool we really are.

Agreed, but see above: not all hot chicks of age <25 like
middle-aged men, no matter how well they look.
Plus, we don't want them just for a night and leave once the clothes
are taken off, but to stay for ... ever. Clothes are just the
entrance. If we put too much weight on it, we'll attract many, but
not hold them. One-night-stands are not the way for netrek.

> I'm not suggesting armani suits here; I'm just saying something that
> looking like we just came off a construction site is not gonna cut it. 

You're too pessimistic about wiki success.

> > (hmm, maybe I should turn back on all the fancy/ flashy things to
> > see what you mean which I normally turn off to save my eyes ;)
> 
> I have javascript and flash off (noscript extension to firefox). 
> My browser does obey style sheets, and will display animated gifs.

My normal mode in FF means no images either and no server-side
colors. If you know lynx text-browser, you know what I mean. :)

> I don't think we need grotesque plugin or script stuff to do it,
> though a movie or two as ancillary content might be ok.

There was netrek-cinema ...

> > Wikis with stylesheets support exist, images can be placed as
> > you like, what else does it need?
> 
> To be there, and to be supported.

That's the reason why Dave came up with the idea of the wiki in
the 1st place: he hoped (and so do I) that this way we'll have no
complete "black out" of support for content again (single point of
failure, see above).

> Supported means backups, upgrades, passwords, people who know
> how to do attractive design for our particular wiki and have
> access to do so.

As said before: the technical background is covered by the hosts
sufficiently. The question is about content support.

Attractive design: I trust you on this, and that you could
implement this even with a wiki for others like me to use and
comply with your templates/ formats/ standards. :)

Access: nothing easier than wiki.

> > If the community can't sustain itself, then it need not be
> > kept alive artificially.
> 
> Call me old-fashioned, but if I'm in critical condition, I'd
> rather be on a respirator for a few months than get kicked out
> into the street. The decisions we make right now may determine
> whether or not the community can support itself.

Heh, it's not your life at danger here, it's "just a game". ;)



Summing it up:
we (you and I, and probably everybody else on this list) want the
same goal /results, just we differ in this single, minor
_technical_ detail of which hosting system we use.
Let's start the wiki and see how it works. Should it fail, you
still can revert all back to darcs.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 13:22:36 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:22:36 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <20070105190906.GB2819@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20061207041225.GB6172@us.netrek.org>
	<20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qtzz5alop.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20070105190906.GB2819@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701051122u6c3afe56pcf402213ce28961a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/5/07, Rado S <inmx027 at math.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:

>
> I fail to see the need for speed here.
> As said before: there have been boosts in the past, which haven't
> been followed up/ supported by website campaigns. And still we're
> here. Converting the old data to the new system won't take ages,
> so we'll have the basic support covered (soon, to support any
> current activitiy).

Any reason why we should not have a wiki and a website? I've seen some
major FOSS sites that have both. Or is this too much work?

> Netrek is _not_ a mass market product.
> There are many more-flashy things, and easier to get into
> (learning curve), and less involving (quicky games 5-15min for
> lunch breaks).
>
> 1st we'd have to define our target audience, and then adjust our
> efforts to reach it. Not to forget look around us who are our
> direct competitors: those who cover the same niche as netrek does.
> Those we have to beat, not ego-shooters, WoW or MineSweeper/
> MoorHuhn- quality.

Good point. Know your target audience seems a good maxim for us. Also
when your player base is relatively small failures in critical
services or major client turn-offs can have a more drastic effect on
the growth of the community.

> One-night-stands are not the way for netrek.

Nor for me! I find the concept grotesque and offensive on many levels.

> My normal mode in FF means no images either and no server-side
> colors. If you know lynx text-browser, you know what I mean. :)

When I was ebaying heavily using lynx let me outbid some competitors
more than once ;-)
I remember when Net services mean primarily gopher, archive, veronica,
ftp, telnet, rsh, irc, finger, pine, talk, zephyr, wais, lynx... hehe.

Regarding backups maybe something like Bacula could be utilized:
http://www.bacula.org/about/press/presskit200.html.en

> Heh, it's not your life at danger here, it's "just a game". ;)

Netrek must survive! ;)

> Let's start the wiki and see how it works. Should it fail, you
> still can revert all back to darcs.

Hear hear. Let the wiki begin.

Zach


From inmx027 at math.uni-hamburg.de  Fri Jan  5 13:40:16 2007
From: inmx027 at math.uni-hamburg.de (Rado S)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:40:16 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek web pages
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0701051122u6c3afe56pcf402213ce28961a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20061208230328.GA4068@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qvekllzs0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061209210431.GA12975@orion.netrek.org>
	<0q7iwvlf9n.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061215220722.GC7288@orion.netrek.org>
	<0qslfchjqm.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20061220195526.GE20337@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<0qtzz5alop.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20070105190906.GB2819@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<ecfa260c0701051122u6c3afe56pcf402213ce28961a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070105194016.GC2819@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Zach wrote on Fri  5.Jan'07 at 14:22:36 -0500 -=

> Any reason why we should not have a wiki and a website? I've seen some
> major FOSS sites that have both. Or is this too much work?

Note "major": netrek isn't major anymore.

What content should go where?
Who'd decide that?
Again, when the website _content_ admin disappears, the same problem.

Should we _ever_ become major again, then we can have enough
people to assign such "critical" services again with back-up
man-power.

> Also when your player base is relatively small failures in
> critical services or major client turn-offs can have a more
> drastic effect on the growth of the community.

Right.

> Netrek must survive! ;)

I thought so for a long time, too, but then realized it will never
disappear completely, just hibernate most of the time, until some
archeolgogist uncovers it again and introduced a retro-phase.

Clothing, hair-style, music-style... all this recycles in retro
hypes ... games are too young for this ... but in some years
netrek will re-rise. ;)

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
Even if it seems insignificant, in fact EVERY effort counts
for a shared task, at least to show your deserving attitude.


From 007 at netrek.org  Sun Jan  7 10:38:16 2007
From: 007 at netrek.org (Kurt Siegl)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 17:38:16 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Netrek The Gathering: The return of the legend
Message-ID: <200701071738.17389.007@netrek.org>

Hi Netrek Fans,

This is the first anouncement for an great event:

     Netrek The Gathering: The return of the legend

     NASG 2007 Austria
     After more than a decade the legend returns to the roots.

The european netrek community had its first international get-together in 1995 
in Austria. It was a great success and started a series of gatherings in 
various European countries.

With Netrek getting less attention and shrinking communities the gatherings 
stopped at the end of the last century.

We like to reawake the good old tradition for a final? gathering and this time 
we invite the whole world to Austria for the big fun.

 Date:
    Summer 2007 (proposals for the exact days are welcome)
 Location:
    Austria 

Further Info under 

          www.nasg2007.hargelsberg.at

If you are interested please send a short note to 007 at netrek.org.
 
If people from overseas, down under or anywhere else in the world like to use 
this opportunity for an additional Austria/Europe holiday trip, we would be 
glad to help you in finding the best locations.

Please forward this information to as many (former) players you know. 

Kurt aka 007

-- 
Kurt Siegl /  Hargelsberg, Austria
Email: 007 at netrek.org
URL:   http://www.hargelsberg.at/nasg2007/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Jan  8 22:30:07 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:30:07 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs patch: fix_missing_template
In-Reply-To: <1167974908.758469.16617.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
References: <1167974908.758469.16617.nullmailer@transmuter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20070109043007.GB12876@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 11:28:28PM -0600, Bob Tanner wrote:
> Thu Jan  4 23:15:08 CST 2007  Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>
>   * fix_missing_template

Taken, applied, pushed, etc.
Tagged 2007-09-01.

tests/build-debian-pbuilder still fails, and I haven't figured out why
yet.  But it may relate to res-rsa.

config.status: creating tools/setpath.csh
config.status: creating include/config.h
=== configuring in res-rsa (/tmp/buildd/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.0/res-rsa)
configure: running /bin/sh ./configure '--prefix='  '--build=i486-linux-gnu' '--includedir=${prefix}/include' '--mandir=${prefix}/share/man' '--infodir=${prefix}/share/info' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--localstatedir=/var' '--libexecdir=${prefix}/lib/netrek-server-vanilla' '--disable-maintainer-mode' '--disable-dependency-tracking' '--bindir=/usr/games' '--libdir=/usr/lib/netrek-server-vanilla' '--sysconfdir=/etc/netrek-server-vanilla' '--localstatedir=/var/lib/netrek-server-vanilla' 'build_alias=i486-linux-gnu' 'CC=cc' 'CFLAGS=-g -Wall -O2' 'LDFLAGS=' 'CPPFLAGS=' 'CXX=g++' 'CXXFLAGS=-g -Wall -O2' --cache-file=/dev/null --srcdir=.
configure: warning: build_alias=i486-linux-gnu: invalid host type
configure: warning: CC=cc: invalid host type
configure: error: can only configure for one host and one target at a time
configure: error: ./configure failed for res-rsa
make: *** [config.status] Error 1
pbuilder: Failed autobuilding of package
 -> Aborting with an error
 -> unmounting dev/pts filesystem
 -> unmounting proc filesystem
 -> cleaning the build env 
    -> removing directory /c/tmp/pbuilder/etch/build/695 and its subdirectories

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 17:54:31 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:54:31 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] need help with COW
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701111554n49089258uf08311c0097c5f5a@mail.gmail.com>

Trying to get COW 3 setup. I just followed instructions on this page:

http://netrek.hwy.com.au/legacy.phtml

It says to ask on the mailing list how to setup the high quality graphics [1]
and sound [2] so can someone tell me how to do that?

Also does anyone know where I can download a tarball of the
COW_3_00pl3 source code?

What is the latest version of COW?

[1] http://netrek.hwy.com.au/clients/cow/pixmaps.tgz
[2] http://netrek.hwy.com.au/clients/cow/COW-Sound.3.00.tar.gz

Regards,
Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 17:59:05 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:59:05 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] cow gone
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701111559y60c46bacn83b358b6cb362833@mail.gmail.com>

can someone restore http://cow.netrek.org and point it to where the
latest content is:
http://genocide.netrek.org/cow/
until the website is fixed

zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 21:36:35 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:36:35 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Facefiles?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701111936w6b40ee69q179589e2c31ca734@mail.gmail.com>

Appears to be broken:
http://facefiles.netrek.org/

I guess after the machine crash Erik never got a chance to set things
up properly.

Perhaps a Perler (Ahn?;-)) can fix the scripts/setup.

When I tried searching by name it ran ffsearch.pl and said:

#!/usr/bin/perl
# C:\Perl\bin\perl.exe -w

use CGI;
[snip - there is tons of output, seems to echo the whole script]

Next I tried listing all players by name, it ran
ffsearch.php?allnames=yes and said:
The requested URL /ffsearch.php was not found on this server.

Same result when I tried searching by handle etc..

The Daily Face function also is not working correctly. There is no
image being displayed.

Zach


From 007 at netrek.org  Fri Jan 12 11:51:52 2007
From: 007 at netrek.org (Kurt Siegl)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:51:52 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] need help with COW
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0701111554n49089258uf08311c0097c5f5a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0701111554n49089258uf08311c0097c5f5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701121851.53349.007@netrek.org>

On Friday 12 January 2007 00:54, Zach wrote:
> Trying to get COW 3 setup. I just followed instructions on this page:
>
> http://netrek.hwy.com.au/legacy.phtml
>
> It says to ask on the mailing list how to setup the high quality graphics
> [1] and sound [2] so can someone tell me how to do that?
>
> Also does anyone know where I can download a tarball of the
> COW_3_00pl3 source code?

The Cow source is located on sourceforge

> What is the latest version of COW?

The latest I did was COW 3.01

> [1] http://netrek.hwy.com.au/clients/cow/pixmaps.tgz
> [2] http://netrek.hwy.com.au/clients/cow/COW-Sound.3.00.tar.gz

Extract this files and set the coresponding directories in the .netrekrc file.

# Sound is really cool, but anoing for others.
sounddir:               /usr/games/netrek/sounds
sound:                  on

# Nice Color Graphics
pixmapDir:              /usr/games/netrek/pixmaps

Greetings,

Kurt

-- 
Kurt Siegl / Franzberg 4, A-4483 Hargelsberg, Austria
Email: Kurt.Siegl at hargelsberg.at  Tel (ISDN):   *(7225)7017
URL:   http://www.hargelsberg.at/siegl/kurt/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Jan 13 21:42:28 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 22:42:28 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] ftp dirs?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701131942p66f971fax81fe144a9a3efec4@mail.gmail.com>

It's giving me permission denied error for:

http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/mirrors/stuff/
http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/mirrors/risc/
http://ftp.netrek.org/pub/netrek/mirrors/info

Zach


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Jan 18 00:49:11 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:49:11 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] meta 2
Message-ID: <0qtzyo6d94.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


meta2 looks kinda hosed to me; pickled is listed three times; twice as
empty, once with 1 player



From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 05:29:39 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:29:39 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] meta 2
In-Reply-To: <0qtzyo6d94.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qtzyo6d94.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701180329gcf9a63bk116bee00eecc628a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, Andrew K. Bressen <akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to> wrote:
>
> meta2 looks kinda hosed to me; pickled is listed three times; twice as
> empty, once with 1 player

Yeah it looks pretty bad now:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5896/meta2qx4.png

Bill said something about Carlos needing to update it with the latest
remove code.

Zach


From rogerborg at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 08:46:09 2007
From: rogerborg at gmail.com (Roger de Borg)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:46:09 +0000
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
Message-ID: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>

Ahoy the list.  Zach recently reminded me that Netrek is still struggling
gamely on, and I've been re-discovering how much fun it is to play.

Unfortunately, it still looks like total ass, even with the latest NetrekXP
client, and configuration through netrek.rc is an absolute pain, even if
you've done it before.  I've started work on a simplified 3D bronco client,
an announcement which, being old and cynical myself, I know will be met with
a resounding "Meh" from everyone (else) who's heard it all before, or at
best a "A multi-windowed 2D client representation is an implicit part of the
game. IMPLICIT!".

And yes, I know that a "3D" representation will for the most part be used to
just display a top-down or nearly top-down view, but it *can* be used to
produce beauty shots, and beauty shots can be put on websites to lure in
unsuspecting noobs to feed the DD runnerscum, particularly if we can trick
them into using some god-awful chase cam mode. ;)

So, and purely FYI, the plan is:

1) Get NetrekXP compiled as C++, because we're in the Future now (done).
2) Run a single-window display-only 3D representation on the game alongside
the classic windows (in progress, using Irrlicht because life's too short to
write yet another a 3D renderer).
3) Take input from the 3D window, making it fully usable.
4) Once the game is fully playable in the 3D window, excise all the1980's 2D
windows gubbins.  Burn it, BURN IT, I say.
5) Remove all the other legacy code supporting OSes and features that maybe
2 people in the world still use (and still can, using their 1992 clients on
their monochrome DECs), and replace it with an actual menu system with a key
configuration screen.
6) Refresh as fast as possible, projecting (uncloaked) ship and torp
positions between server updates to make it look less horribly stuttery.
7) Bleat and whine like a punctured bagpipe then give up in outraged disgust
because nobody wants to model 40 ships that will end up looking pretty much
like 2D bitmaps anyway when viewed from high above.

With failure built right into the plan, I can't fail to fail, even if I
succeed.

Anyway.

The primary R of this RFC is for suggestions about how to incorporate enough
salient information for 95% of players into a single window.  Take a moment
to scream the requisite "OMG, INFOBORG HAXXORZ!", then we can go on.

My intention is to have the tactical fill the whole window, with the
playerlist overlayed in the bottom left, a single unified message window
overlayed in the bottom right, and a (relatively small) galactic window
overlayed in the top right.  As normal, the galactic area will be usable for
sending events.  I intend to put as much known (i.e. not "infoborged")
information on the screen as possible by default, to reduce the requirement
to keep infoing planets and players.

I feel that I may also want a full-screen galactic mode, as the galactic is
the most important window.  I mean, apart from the message window, which as
we all know is the most important window.  The most important apart from the
playerlist, obviously.

The other major possibility is to have the tactical fill a square viewport
on the left 3/4 (or 9/16ths) of the screen, with the other 1/4rd or 7/9ths
of the screen being used for galactic, playerlist and message-list stacked
vertically.  A square tactical avoids issues with aspect ratios or freaky
camera frustrums, although I don't want to get too cute in a first version.

Right, that's me done expounding the Grand Plan.  "Meh", "Implicit!", "OMG
INFOBORG HAXXORZ", or a world weary silence would all be appropriate at this
point.

Kind regards,

-Colin MacDonald-
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From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 18 11:02:50 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:02:50 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY128-F22B60168E4DC72B77B57D7CBAA0@phx.gbl>

Is it really a "3D client" or a 2D client with better bitmaps and different 
window placements/sizes?

What is your timeline for completing the first release?

-Joe


>From: "Roger de Borg" <rogerborg at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List <netrek-dev at us.netrek.org>
>To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
>
>And yes, I know that a "3D" representation will for the most part be used 
>to
>just display a top-down or nearly top-down view, but it *can* be used to
>produce beauty shots, and beauty shots can be put on websites to lure in
>unsuspecting noobs to feed the DD runnerscum, particularly if we can trick
>them into using some god-awful chase cam mode. ;)
>
>My intention is to have the tactical fill the whole window, with the
>playerlist overlayed in the bottom left, a single unified message window
>overlayed in the bottom right, and a (relatively small) galactic window
>overlayed in the top right.  As normal, the galactic area will be usable 
>for
>sending events.  I intend to put as much known (i.e. not "infoborged")
>information on the screen as possible by default, to reduce the requirement
>to keep infoing planets and players.
>
>I feel that I may also want a full-screen galactic mode, as the galactic is
>the most important window.  I mean, apart from the message window, which as
>we all know is the most important window.  The most important apart from 
>the
>playerlist, obviously.
>
>The other major possibility is to have the tactical fill a square viewport
>on the left 3/4 (or 9/16ths) of the screen, with the other 1/4rd or 7/9ths
>of the screen being used for galactic, playerlist and message-list stacked
>vertically.  A square tactical avoids issues with aspect ratios or freaky
>camera frustrums, although I don't want to get too cute in a first version.
>
>Right, that's me done expounding the Grand Plan.  "Meh", "Implicit!", "OMG
>INFOBORG HAXXORZ", or a world weary silence would all be appropriate at 
>this
>point.
>
>Kind regards,
>
>-Colin MacDonald-


>_______________________________________________
>netrek-dev mailing list
>netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

_________________________________________________________________
Get in the mood for Valentines? Day. View photos, recipes and more on your 
Live.com page. 
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701



From rogerborg at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 11:59:05 2007
From: rogerborg at gmail.com (Colin MacDonald)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:59:05 +0000
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-F22B60168E4DC72B77B57D7CBAA0@phx.gbl>
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY128-F22B60168E4DC72B77B57D7CBAA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <37c7fe6a0701180959y70e3da74vc4a72b88566ddf88@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, Joe Evango <jjadeinc at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is it really a "3D client" or a 2D client with better bitmaps and
> different
> window placements/sizes?


Hi Joe,

It's 3D, but I expect that the most common use - for existing players anyway
- will be a top-down view that looks much like the existing tactical.  Wacky
camera angles or trailing or zooming (maybe speed-sensitive) cameras would
certainly be possible, but at the expense of lowered competitiveness.

The real purpose is that using a 3D renderer makes it easier to add in eye
candy (yes, hiss in outrage!), and I feel that the the current clients are,
while highly functional, simply too stone age for today's market.  As per
previous discussions on this list, I believe that potential players won't
take the time to find out how good Netrek is under the skin, if the skin is
all wrinkled and ancient.


What is your timeline for completing the first release?
> -Joe



Approximately when it's done.  I'm neither committing to a timescale nor
looking for assistance, this is purely an FYI at this point.  Due to
Netrek's liberal use of globals and fixed size arrays, it's actually a
breeze to implement, and I'm currently dodging torps in the 3D window
(admittedly every ship is a WWII German destroyer and the torps are all pink
blobs, but the principle is there).  It's actually the front end, input, and
text rendering that'll take the time, not to mention modelling the ships and
eye candy, although given the scales involved, the models don't have to be
particularly detailed.

I should mention that I'm basing it on NetrekXP 2006, and will be developing
it on Windows only, but using a very lightweight cross platform 3D engine
(Irrlicht, or I might switch to its offspring, Lightfeather) that should
allow easy porting to Linux and MacOS if it ever gets to the point where
anyone is interested.

Worst case, if nobody uses it but me, then it'll still be a satisfying
project.

Regards,

-Colin-
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From williamb at its.caltech.edu  Thu Jan 18 13:10:02 2007
From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:10:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky>

> So, and purely FYI, the plan is:
>
> 1) Get NetrekXP compiled as C++, because we're in the Future now (done).
Any comments to improve compile.txt, or was it as easy to compile as I
hope it is?

> My intention is to have the tactical fill the whole window, with the
> playerlist overlayed in the bottom left, a single unified message window
> overlayed in the bottom right, and a (relatively small) galactic window
> overlayed in the top right.  As normal, the galactic area will be usable for
> sending events.  I intend to put as much known (i.e. not "infoborged")
> information on the screen as possible by default, to reduce the requirement
> to keep infoing planets and players.
>
I played around with changing tactical size, here's the thing.  If you go
try and increase the range, ie display beyond a 20000x20000 galactic units
window, you will have incomplete information, as weapons info is not sent
beyond that range.  So there is essentially a fog of war for weapons, but
not ships.  It can make weapons seem to appear out of nowhere.  Mactrek
has this problem I believe.   If you instead increase the scale, keeping
20000x20000 galactic units but use higher resolution bitmaps, it
drastically alters game play.  If you increase the scale by 2, you get
better graphics sure, but you also make phasers twice as long, torps move
twice as fast.  Screws up all a player's built in skill at dogfighting.  I
tried it out briefly, I did not like the feel at all.

> I feel that I may also want a full-screen galactic mode, as the galactic is
> the most important window.  I mean, apart from the message window, which as
> we all know is the most important window.  The most important apart from the
> playerlist, obviously.
>
Full screen galactic could be useful for observers, but never for a
player, it would be flying blind.

> Right, that's me done expounding the Grand Plan.  "Meh", "Implicit!", "OMG
> INFOBORG HAXXORZ", or a world weary silence would all be appropriate at this
> point.
>
Don't worry about infoborg too much, army count for all planets displayed
on tactical and galactic without using info key is probably out though
(it's been rejected by the majority of the community and the RSA keyholder
(Carlos) as not acceptable).  Other than that, we've put in lots of
things that were once called borg, so never hurts to try!
And of course, a graphics update wouldn't hurt.  But torps and ships move
in 2d, I can see maybe a quasi-3d client, but full blown 3d? Nah.  As soon
as you start changing the viewable angle beyond top down, you both mess up
distance perception as well as lose tactical information on objects
on the 2d plane your ship is in that are blocked from the viewpoint of the
camera by the 3d bulky representation of your ship.

Bill


From mark at mark.mielke.cc  Thu Jan 18 09:44:17 2007
From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:44:17 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070118154416.GA17908@mark.mielke.cc>

Meh.



Seriously, though. Netrek 2D graphics do suck, and the information games
are silly. The good players have memorized all the info anyways, so
frequently hitting 'i' or 'I' is not an issue for them. The game should
be designed for the average player - not for the expert player. The
combination of having an elitist system as well as an archaic interface
has slowly erroded the player base.

I loved Netrek at one time. I play for about a week a year now, because
the people generally aren't pleasant to be around, and it seems like a
huge time sink for no benefit. Oh wait. The secret is out.

Maybe I'm just getting older. I started playing Netrek was I was 12,
back in 1991 or so.

Cheers,
mark

-- 
mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com     __________________________
.  .  _  ._  . .   .__    .  . ._. .__ .   . . .__  | Neighbourhood Coder
|\/| |_| |_| |/    |_     |\/|  |  |_  |   |/  |_   | 
|  | | | | \ | \   |__ .  |  | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__  | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

  One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all
                       and in the darkness bind them...

                           http://mark.mielke.cc/



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Jan 18 23:22:07 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:22:07 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
	(Roger de Borg's message of "Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:46:09 +0000")
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0qejpr616o.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


It's an interesting idea. I really like the movement interpolation concept,
and better eye candy would be great.

> their monochrome DECs), and replace it with an actual menu system with a key
> configuration screen.

being able to save named keymaps and trade them would be cool. 

> With failure built right into the plan, I can't fail to fail, even if I
> succeed.

That is a brilliant observation. And if failure is a goal, you can't help
but succeed.

> The other major possibility is to have the tactical fill a square viewport
> on the left 3/4 (or 9/16ths) of the screen, with the other 1/4rd or 7/9ths
> of the screen being used for galactic, playerlist and message-list stacked
> vertically.  A square tactical avoids issues with aspect ratios or freaky
> camera frustrums, although I don't want to get too cute in a first version.

that offhand sounds a little more workable, though overlays for ship
status would prolly still be worthwhile. you could also leave just a bit
of space under the tac to put something. But overlays for instrumentation.
Big, legible fuel and damage gauges.

I think users should be able to control layout to some degree; one
layout does not work for all users. I've often wished for the ability
to drag and resize my windows. And then save them in a named fashion
and have some way to share them with other folks. If you do the 
lots-of-overlays approach, windowshading would be nice.

personally, I'd find playing with a unified message window to be 
pretty nasty; I really don't want the ALL flamage intruding.

how would you do the popups?
(war declarations, network info, rank requirements)
as translucent overlays? 
Buttons to pop them up and pull them back would be cool, and the buttons
and overlays could be color-coded to match each other.

the two things I remember really liking about the graphics of the star
trek the motion picture coin-op video game were the counter-rotating
phaser lock rings and the sort of diamond net grid that popped up when
you got hit. Having the whole screen have some kind of overlay or
color shift when you get hit might be cool, and some kind of eyecandy
to distinguish successful phaser hits from misses. when you hit a
cloaker, you could maybe see a hazy shape or something (yeah, the
shape couldn't be made to match the ship type, but it could still be
made to look cool...). 

I guess popping up damage inflicted, or even altering the graphic
based on damage, would be too borgy. As would having increasing
numbers of randomized soundbites the more damage you took (people
yelling things like "hull breach on deck 4! seal the bulkheads!")

your mentioning the navy ships graphics made me think alternate
graphic sets could be pretty funny. Elmer Fudd = AS, Yosemite Sam =
BB, Bugs = CA, Daffy = DD, Roadrunner = SC, Taz = SB.

could the sucker be made to do paradise, or at least have hooks 
for future expansion?

I know there's an opengl client for conquest; perhaps it's worth
looking at for visual ideas. 


  --akb



From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Fri Jan 19 02:34:36 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:34:36 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky> (William Balcerski's
	message of "Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:10:02 -0800 (PST)")
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky>
Message-ID: <0qac0f5s9v.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


William Balcerski <williamb at its.caltech.edu> writes:
> I played around with changing tactical size, here's the thing.  If you go
> try and increase the range, ie display beyond a 20000x20000 galactic units
> window, you will have incomplete information, as weapons info is not sent
> beyond that range.  So there is essentially a fog of war for weapons, but
> not ships.  It can make weapons seem to appear out of nowhere.  Mactrek
> has this problem I believe.   

ideas:
(1) Shade the weapons with distance, so that they seem to fade away
(2) Have weapons at middle distance be rendered in a different fashion,
as if you could see close strikes but middle distance would look more
"computerfied" with maybe some vector lines, as if your ship's systems
had to infer that data, and then no weapons info past that
(3) an equivalent to det circle; some kind of "fishbowl" shading overlay
surround that makes the range limit visible

(speaking of which, will this have a det circle? you could instead somehow 
strobe or rotate colors on incoming torps so that you could estimate
how close they are...)

> Don't worry about infoborg too much, army count for all planets displayed
> on tactical and galactic without using info key is probably out though

I can think of a hellish lot of borg stuff.
Overlay player login handle on ships. Highlight ships with kills.
Damage and fuel estimates next to enemies. Ew.

>...   Other than that, we've put in lots of
> things that were once called borg, so never hurts to try!

Out of curiousity, what? Det circle and AGRIcaps I know, what else?
One key lock-and-twarp? Overloaded bomb/beam-up key? 

  --akb 


From rogerborg at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 07:06:42 2007
From: rogerborg at gmail.com (Colin MacDonald)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:06:42 +0000
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky>
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky>
Message-ID: <37c7fe6a0701190506p5c75dc9bj31df6324a2ea80a8@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/18/07, William Balcerski <williamb at its.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > So, and purely FYI, the plan is:
> >
> > 1) Get NetrekXP compiled as C++, because we're in the Future now (done).
> Any comments to improve compile.txt, or was it as easy to compile as I
> hope it is?


Hi Bill, thanks for your interest.  The C++ conversion wasn't that bad:

1) Decorated the uses of C++ keywords (new / delete) being as variable names
2) Changed the use of enum dist_type parameters and variables to ints, as
enums don't provide range checking, so the type casting required was more of
a hindrance than a help.
3) Added a (W_Event * unused) parameter to all the key handlers that were
taking void (and changed the definition).
4) The struct packet_handler handlers[] also needed sorting.  I'm just
casting the handler functions to (void(*)(void *)) in the array
initialisation.
5) I left the rsa_box*.c files as C, as they're auto-generated, and all of
the mpz_foo_bar functions that they call are implemented in a C compiled
library.  I cheated a bit and moved the key_name[] etc variables out to
main.cpp to avoid name mangling issues, although that was mostly laziness.
6) No doubt some other things that I've forgotten, but it was only a couple
of hours work, starting more or less from cold.


I played around with changing tactical size, here's the thing.  If you go
> try and increase the range, ie display beyond a 20000x20000 galactic units
> window, you will have incomplete information, as weapons info is not sent
> beyond that range.  So there is essentially a fog of war for weapons, but
> not ships.  It can make weapons seem to appear out of nowhere.


A bit of fiddling with actual fog might ameliorate that.  I'm not planning
on letting the viewable area get much above the current tactical size
anyway, as that produces tiny ships, unless I scale them up, which leads
to...


> has this problem I believe.   If you instead increase the scale, keeping
> 20000x20000 galactic units but use higher resolution bitmaps, it
> drastically alters game play.  If you increase the scale by 2, you get
> better graphics sure, but you also make phasers twice as long, torps move
> twice as fast.  Screws up all a player's built in skill at dogfighting.  I
> tried it out briefly, I did not like the feel at all.


To be honest, I fully expect existing players to hate this client.  It's
going to look like Netrek-lite and is really intended for players who
wouldn't otherwise consider Netrek as a viable candidate for their gaming
time.


Full screen galactic could be useful for observers, but never for a
> player, it would be flying blind.


Is there any reason why a full screen galactic couldn't show phasers, torps
and ship directions?  OMG INFOBORG aside, I mean?  The client already has
that info; it's purely a convention that we don't see it on the galactic.



> Don't worry about infoborg too much, army count for all planets displayed
> on tactical and galactic without using info key is probably out though
> (it's been rejected by the majority of the community and the RSA keyholder
> (Carlos) as not acceptable).


Really?  It's information that's sent to the client, so I hadn't considered
that showing it would be considered an exploit.

Out of interest, I note that pickled and continuum aren't enforcing RSA
checks at the moment, which makes development a lot easier.  Any idea why
that is?

Incidentally, while I'm strictly white-hat now, I know from experience that
writing an RSA-busting client is about a day's work.  I'll elaborate
off-list if anyone's interested, but as I don't see an obvious solution to
the attack, it's not something that I feel would benefit from being
publically disclosed.



> And of course, a graphics update wouldn't hurt.  But torps and ships move
> in 2d, I can see maybe a quasi-3d client, but full blown 3d? Nah.  As soon
> as you start changing the viewable angle beyond top down, you both mess up
> distance perception as well as lose tactical information on objects
> on the 2d plane your ship is in that are blocked from the viewpoint of the
> camera by the 3d bulky representation of your ship.


Yes, it will suck for playing using anything but a strictly top-down,
zoomed-out camera.  Fortunately for me, I'm free beer anyway, so it can
hardly make me much worse.  Also, is having a plentiful supply of food a
problem for people who don't use it? ;)

Regards,
-Colin-
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From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Sat Jan 20 02:13:00 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 03:13:00 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] 3D client RFC
In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0701190506p5c75dc9bj31df6324a2ea80a8@mail.gmail.com>
	(Colin MacDonald's message of "Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:06:42 +0000")
References: <37c7fe6a0701180646s359c5c3ct7fa29c0bdeea7087@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0701181055070.25730@inky>
	<37c7fe6a0701190506p5c75dc9bj31df6324a2ea80a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0qsle63ylv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


"Colin MacDonald" <rogerborg at gmail.com> writes:
>> Don't worry about infoborg too much, army count for all planets displayed
>> on tactical and galactic without using info key is probably out though
>> (it's been rejected by the majority of the community and the RSA keyholder
>> (Carlos) as not acceptable).
> Really?  It's information that's sent to the client, so I hadn't considered
> that showing it would be considered an exploit.

if a det circle can be considered borg by some...

> Out of interest, I note that pickled and continuum aren't enforcing RSA
> checks at the moment, which makes development a lot easier.  Any idea why
> that is?

the new mac client; not sure it's done with RSA teething pains. 

  --akb




From narcis at luky.nl  Sun Jan 21 07:25:37 2007
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:25:37 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1169316067.7370.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1169316067.7370.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <8B2EABFB-1070-42E7-B426-FAE843F12181@luky.nl>

>
> the new mac client; not sure it's done with RSA teething pains.
>
>   --akb
>

Should be, though we never tested it outside our test server  
(2.10.something) but worked fine there
Requires users to upgrade to 1.1.0 though

regards

Chris


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Jan 21 18:04:11 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:04:11 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <8B2EABFB-1070-42E7-B426-FAE843F12181@luky.nl>
References: <mailman.1.1169316067.7370.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<8B2EABFB-1070-42E7-B426-FAE843F12181@luky.nl>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701211604p300d7346ie027d598c6c24b71@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Chris,

I've been seeing a lot of MacTrek users since Apple listed the client
on it's games page. Yesterday alone I saw 10 unique MacTrek players on
3 different servers.

Zach


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Tue Jan 23 20:14:10 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:14:10 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0701211604p300d7346ie027d598c6c24b71@mail.gmail.com>
	(Zach's message of "Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:04:11 -0500")
References: <mailman.1.1169316067.7370.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<8B2EABFB-1070-42E7-B426-FAE843F12181@luky.nl>
	<ecfa260c0701211604p300d7346ie027d598c6c24b71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0q8xft41e5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


Zach <netrek at gmail.com> writes:
> I've been seeing a lot of MacTrek users since Apple listed the client
> on it's games page. Yesterday alone I saw 10 unique MacTrek players on
> 3 different servers.

any of them read? any of them stay?



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Jan 23 22:08:36 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:08:36 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] kathy sierra
Message-ID: <20070124040836.GE11069@us.netrek.org>

Some of the developers recently attended linux.conf.au, and one of the
inspiring talks of relevance to Netrek is ...

http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/friday/Friday_0900_Sierra_camera1.ogg

Only a hundred or so megabytes.  ;-)  The real talk starts about ten
minutes in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 22:24:04 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:24:04 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] kathy sierra
In-Reply-To: <20070124040836.GE11069@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070124040836.GE11069@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701232024s70566a11x93b34a7b0d7003f3@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Some of the developers recently attended linux.conf.au, and one of the
> inspiring talks of relevance to Netrek is ...
>
> http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/friday/Friday_0900_Sierra_camera1.ogg
>
> Only a hundred or so megabytes.  ;-)  The real talk starts about ten
> minutes in.

Heh. For those of us on dialup can you please give a precis of the
talk and it's relevance to netrek?

I see next year's conference is already planned:
http://lca2007.linux.org.au/

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra

Wonder if she was involved with Sierra Online and the Sierra game company.

Zach


From netrek at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 22:42:14 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:42:14 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <0q8xft41e5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <mailman.1.1169316067.7370.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<8B2EABFB-1070-42E7-B426-FAE843F12181@luky.nl>
	<ecfa260c0701211604p300d7346ie027d598c6c24b71@mail.gmail.com>
	<0q8xft41e5.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701232042x39ca5b91m19eee568096fd167@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, Andrew K. Bressen <akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to> wrote:
>
> any of them read?

Out of the bunch I've seen about 1/3 that appear to read and 2 that responded.

> any of them stay?

Yes I've seen 3-4 of them make characters and have seen them playing
the past few days. Hope they stick with it.

Zach


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Wed Jan 24 03:29:30 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 04:29:30 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] two minor mactrek issues
Message-ID: <0qzm883h8l.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


First, I submitted a bug on sourceforge because mactrek isn't checking
hogcalls to make sure they are coming to its slot. This means that when
the server sends a timer warning message to the ALL board, the client replies
with a hog call answer back to the board. 

Secondly, jrd notes that the client seems to send the message "Active" 
sometimes. I see sixteen instances in about 439k lines of log, so
it can't be happening terribly often. I didn't submit this on sourceforge
because I haven't personally verified it's the mac client emitting this
message, and it also occurs to me that this might have been a 1.0 thing
that's fixed already. 

Also, I added the mac default keymap to the dev wiki in case folks want
a ref copy to use to help out newbs. 



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Jan 24 06:36:24 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:36:24 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] two minor mactrek issues
In-Reply-To: <0qzm883h8l.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qzm883h8l.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20070124123624.GB23708@us.netrek.org>

Yeah, I've seen "Active" too.

It does not seem to affect their ability to play.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Jan 24 06:50:28 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:50:28 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] two minor mactrek issues
In-Reply-To: <20070124123624.GB23708@us.netrek.org>
References: <0qzm883h8l.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
	<20070124123624.GB23708@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701240450q6e1c4dddo760f6a5913e55bae@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/24/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> Yeah, I've seen "Active" too.

Same here. More annoying is the client version string sent to ALL. I
noticed it sending it twice recently (one after the other). 3 MacTrek
players connected and the ALL board was spammed with 6 version strings
in 5 minutes. Not a big deal though.

> It does not seem to affect their ability to play.

How about a server-side feature where if a player has not moved there
ship in 5 minutes it will say "Passive" on ALL :)

Zach


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 24 10:05:28 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:05:28 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Question about steering with the Mac client
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0701240450q6e1c4dddo760f6a5913e55bae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY128-F112306A46654BC912D5F77CBAC0@phx.gbl>

Does anyone know what key to press to steer when using a one button mouse?

I understand the easiest solution is to connect a two button mouse but I 
have seen several instances in that past couple weeks where users are using 
a one button mouse and can't steer.


Thanks,

Joe

_________________________________________________________________

From karthik at karthik.com  Wed Jan 24 14:58:23 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:58:23 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1169661602.4412.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1169661602.4412.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <791FCFB3-448C-44A5-AF71-39867E59009D@karthik.com>


> Yeah, I've seen "Active" too.
>
> It does not seem to affect their ability to play.

The "Active" is because the message box for some reason defaults to  
having "Active" in it. So if you click in it and hit return without  
deleting that text, you send an "Active" out.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Jan 24 15:15:40 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:15:40 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <791FCFB3-448C-44A5-AF71-39867E59009D@karthik.com>
References: <mailman.1.1169661602.4412.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
	<791FCFB3-448C-44A5-AF71-39867E59009D@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <20070124211540.GB3921@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 03:58:23PM -0500, Karthik Arumugham wrote:
> The "Active" is because the message box for some reason defaults to  
> having "Active" in it. So if you click in it and hit return without  
> deleting that text, you send an "Active" out.

Woot.  One for the FAQ.  Who is maintaining the FAQ?  ;-)

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Thu Jan 25 02:01:04 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:01:04 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] bad bug
Message-ID: <0qhcuf358f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


It should be noted that tonite's overall very successful clue game did
manifest an apparently known bug which I haven't seen mentioned
before.

The bug apparently is that the server is a bit confused
about armies, observers, and ghostbusts. 

if you are observing someone, and that person has N armies, 
and you get ghostbusted, the server drops N armies on the 
homeworld of the person you were watching, as if they and
not the observer had busted. 

Is there a bug-tracking system for the bronco/inl server this should
get entered into? 

  --akb



From narcis at luky.nl  Thu Jan 25 12:45:25 2007
From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:45:25 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek issues
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1169661602.4412.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
References: <mailman.1.1169661602.4412.netrek-dev@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <61750D12-4BEC-4CD8-BD19-0D3AE52C79AC@luky.nl>

>
> On 1/23/07, Andrew K. Bressen <akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to> wrote:
>>
>> any of them read?
>
> Out of the bunch I've seen about 1/3 that appear to read and 2 that  
> responded.
>
>> any of them stay?
>
> Yes I've seen 3-4 of them make characters and have seen them playing
> the past few days. Hope they stick with it.

Same here, after all that was the whole point of creating a new  
client :-)

> First, I submitted a bug on sourceforge because mactrek isn't checking
> hogcalls to make sure they are coming to its slot. This means that  
> when
> the server sends a timer warning message to the ALL board, the  
> client replies
> with a hog call answer back to the board.

1.1.0 has a bug that it responds to any five spaces anywhere in the  
string,
should be fixed in the next version though.

> Secondly, jrd notes that the client seems to send the message "Active"
> sometimes. I see sixteen instances in about 439k lines of log, so
> it can't be happening terribly often. I didn't submit this on  
> sourceforge
> because I haven't personally verified it's the mac client emitting  
> this
> message, and it also occurs to me that this might have been a 1.0  
> thing
> that's fixed already.

It's the default text in the dialog window, if a user clicks it and  
presses enter, it
gets send. I could improve on that :-) there is also a problem with  
mouse focus
once in input mode the textbox "captures"  the users, so far i always  
needed
to fire a torp to get control back (not very elegant)

> Also, I added the mac default keymap to the dev wiki in case folks  
> want
> a ref copy to use to help out newbs.

Good idea!

> Does anyone know what key to press to steer when using a one button  
> mouse?
>
> I understand the easiest solution is to connect a two button mouse  
> but I
> have seen several instances in that past couple weeks where users  
> are using
> a one button mouse and can't steer.

in mactrek ? k (who else would have a single button mouse?)

Regards

Chris


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Jan 25 20:10:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:10:19 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] bad bug (ghostbust of observer of carrier results
	in armies placed on home planet)
In-Reply-To: <0qhcuf358f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <0qhcuf358f.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <20070126021019.GC19008@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 03:01:04AM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote:
> if you are observing someone, and that person has N armies, 
> and you get ghostbusted, the server drops N armies on the 
> homeworld of the person you were watching, as if they and
> not the observer had busted. 

An attempt to fix this was made several years ago, but the fix was
defective.  In the past few months I had another go and found several
places to fix this.  The changes are in the current code base.

So I really really want to know what code base was used for that clue
game!

> Is there a bug-tracking system for the bronco/inl server this should
> get entered into? 

I believe it is already fixed.  But your question is important for
future bugs.

Mailing list is best.  Another place is the PROJECTS or BUGS file in the
source repository.  But if you really want a bug-tracking system, use
http://trac.us.netrek.org/projects/netrek-server/ ... we need developers
willing to use that before it becomes useful.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 01:09:52 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 02:09:52 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] stats for inl.psychosis.net
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701262309s7ab33888k2e92f1efca1ec4b4@mail.gmail.com>

in last game the stats went into "unknown" directory, make symlink to
to point inl.psychosis.net stats into twink.crackaddict.com directory
or add inl.psychosis.net directory?

zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Jan 27 18:01:16 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:01:16 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] darcs get http://genocide.netrek.org/
Message-ID: <20070128000116.GB5142@us.netrek.org>

G'day,

While I don't want to hinder the plans for the wiki, we're suffering
from lagged information now, so I've done a darcs init and add in the
genocide content tree.  Not all files are added.  Those interested in
contributing to either netrek.org, the wiki, or genocide.netrek.org, now
have an additional source of content to work from.

You will need the following expertise in order to contribute:

- HTML,
- CSS,
- PHP,
- darcs,
- a place to publish your repository via HTTP.

This eliminates many potential contributors, but some of you may be able
to do something.  Those working on the development Wiki, please continue
to do so, I like what I see.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 07:15:30 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:15:30 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] stats archive timestamps?
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0701310515y2f424115t2f037060aa7aa130@mail.gmail.com>

Having a hard time telling when a given game was played since all the
directories and file timestamps now that I checked have the same date
of "27-OCT-2005". I guess the files were restored from backup on that
date but the original timestamps were not preserved? Anyway to get the
files at least all showing the correct year and month they are from?

Zach


From jjadeinc at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 31 13:02:28 2007
From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:02:28 -0600
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update metaservers to report true player counts on
	pickled?
Message-ID: <BAY128-F107AD3267393A1C158D6E0CBA50@phx.gbl>

Looks like pickled will be down at least a couple days.  Can we get it
reset on the metaservers so it isn't showing as having 12 people
on it?  At least have it show as having 0 people until it is back up?

When it went down yesterday it had 12 people playing on it and now the
metaservers appear stuck in reporting pickled as still having 12
people on it.  It is putting it at the top of the metaserver listing
and takes a while to timeout.

-Joe

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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Jan 31 15:39:58 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:39:58 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] stats archive timestamps?
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0701310515y2f424115t2f037060aa7aa130@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0701310515y2f424115t2f037060aa7aa130@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070131213958.GB4299@us.netrek.org>

This is a normal problem with backup and restore ... yes it is possible
to restore the dates at the time, and it is also possible to restore
them now, but you'd have to have a directory listing showing what they
were.  I don't think the dates should merely be fudged to the correct
year and month ... there's no way to specify accuracy on those dates.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Jan 31 15:54:41 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:54:41 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] Update metaservers to report true player counts on
	pickled?
In-Reply-To: <BAY128-F107AD3267393A1C158D6E0CBA50@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY128-F107AD3267393A1C158D6E0CBA50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070131215441.GC4299@us.netrek.org>

Fixed on my metaserver.  It will no longer list any active server with
information older than an hour, so as to catch this situation should it
happen again.

You can see the code change in darcs ...

http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcs.cgi/netrek-metaserver/?c=diff&p=20070131214932-e4f26-459bd9b235b23d48aecfe7e7dfb44f9008fbe389.gz

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/