From stephen.thorne at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 00:12:45 2007 From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:12:45 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> have you tried the latest cow from james's darcs repo? -- Stephen Thorne "Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world." --Jonathan Lange From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 00:14:03 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 01:14:03 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: I had this same problem with COW in Linux (Debian also). Would be nice if someone can finally solve this. For now I use the COW package Bob Tanner made as that works. I'd like to know WHY it works though :-) Zach On 2/28/07, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > I tried to fire up linux COW tonight; some problems on > both pickled and the clue game. > > Continuum was fine. Connecting to continuum and logging in, output is: > Attempting to connect to continuum.us.netrek.org on port 2592... > Calling continuum.us.netrek.org on port 2592. > Got connection. > *** socket 12588, player 0 *** > Feature FPS from server unknown to client! > Receiving Short Packet Version 11 > RSA verification requested. > > But, attempting to obs or play on pickled, or obs the clue game, > I got something like the following: > Attempting to observe on port 4578... > Attempting to connect to away.clue.netrek.org on port 4578... > Calling away.clue.netrek.org on port 4578. > Got connection. > *** socket 12688, player 27 *** > Receiving Short Packet Version 11 > RSA verification requested. > Tried to write 6, 0xbfe3bc20, 12 > write: Destination address required > gwrite failed. > Whoops! We've been ghostbusted! > Pray for a miracle! > Waiting for connection (port 12688). > > The socket message appears immediately. > Then I perform a login and choose a ship. > Then other messages appear, as the screen does a full draw, > and then immediately freezes, busted. > > The hex number changes from run to run. > > This is the COW.3.01pl0.linux_glibc23 build, > my glibc is 2.3.6.ds1-11 from debian. > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 1 00:49:05 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 17:49:05 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 11:51:07PM -0500, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > RSA verification requested. > Tried to write 6, 0xbfe3bc20, 12 > write: Destination address required > gwrite failed. Known problem, since fixed. Upgrade. Unfortunately, we don't have the fix packaged into a binary release yet. It was caused by code in COW that responded to a ping packet from the server during the negotiation of UDP. The code mistakenly used the UDP socket before it had been connected to the server. It has been there for a long time, and I'm not sure what has recently changed to make it more common. You should find that adding "tryudp: off" to your .xtrekrc will work around it. If not, it's a different problem. The fix is in my repository. http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-client-cow/ Wed Feb 21 22:23:40 EST 2007 quozl at us.netrek.org * fix udp establishment * ping.c: sometimes establishing UDP fails, turns out because a ping packet arrives for us to reply to, but we haven't got the UDP connection established, and so gwrite fails. Fix is to note this and just use TCP. The diff is visible here: http://james.tooraweenah.com/cgi-bin/darcs.cgi/netrek-client-cow/?c=diff&p=20070221112340-e4f26-dd56b28ad3748f9cc86bdbcf22f69a3463f173c4.gz It is not yet in the netrek.org repository. The netrek.org repository is about 35 patches behind mine, dating back to November 2006. http://www.netrek.org/repos/netrek-client-cow/ I'd like more people trying to use the client straight out of my repository, so that we can detect regressions sooner. I'm also interested to hear from anyone who'd like to run a stable repo from mine, from which they can build binaries. I don't want to do everything. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 02:24:48 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 03:24:48 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> References: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: I have connected to bill's server many times. never had any issue with busting and I'm not using COW (Netrek XP Mod 4.4.0.3 for Win32). I sent Bill my netrekrc and he tested it with that same client/version and had no problems and said it was due likely to my latency with dialup. But if this was just a dialup issue I would have busted many times on the netrek servers since I've been using this client for well over a year which isn't the case. I was able to login to bill's server this past weekend without issue. So maybe it was code in one of the fps patches that had an unintended consequence or a non-fps patch submitted between Sunday and a few hours ago which is causing this behaviour. Zach From narcis at luky.nl Thu Mar 1 08:21:51 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:21:51 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek Active In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <412DF64D-BB68-4BC7-876D-B6A2B3DC172C@luky.nl> > Has the issue with the "Active" message been fixed in the latest > release? As of now there is a new release at sourceforge (1.1.1) that fixes the Active issue it also addresses the problem of the incorrect hogcall. It does not contain new functions but is a continuation of the 1.1.0 branch, not of the trunk. regards Chris From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 1 14:46:18 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:46:18 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] psychotic cow? In-Reply-To: References: <3e8ca5c80702282212s1ca239ddp93e2185249260957@mail.gmail.com> <0qfy8po9c4.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070301064905.GA18297@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070301204618.GA5648@us.netrek.org> No, Zach, this problem has been reproduced by me and others several times over the past few years, but it hasn't been important enough to be fixed until now. For a short time during development last week or the week before, the SP_PING packets were sent five times faster, and so the chances of the problem happening were much greater, and so finding the problem much easier. It was what we call a race condition problem. Without this opportunity created by the temporary bugs introduced into the server, it would have been very hard to find. Strict timing would be necessary, over a large range of timing possibilities. We would have had to craft a client modification that would delay UDP initialisation by different amounts of time, from zero to two seconds, in hundredth second increments. The change that returned SP_PING to normal on the server, was the change to efticks() macro. Please review all the changes. They aren't all related to 50 fps. Don't focus on just that feature, to the exlusion of others. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Fri Mar 2 02:13:42 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 19:13:42 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 released [SECURITY] Message-ID: <20070302081342.GA20340@us.netrek.org> netrek-server-vanilla 2.12.1 was released. http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/ 9ae1eafabbe7228625509c5690374559 netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1.tar.gz Packages for i386 Debian Etch also present. Summary of changes: - fixes format string security vulnerability when EVENTLOG=1 Patch attached. Our thanks to Luigi Auriemma for reporting the vulnerability. A reproducer was supplied. Severity is low, since EVENTLOG is shipped as 0 in docs/sample_sysdef.in. If you have a question, please review the patch first, before you write. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.0-format-string.patch Type: text/x-diff Size: 6016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070302/a5ed68c9/attachment.patch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070302/a5ed68c9/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 14:31:26 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 14:31:26 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? Message-ID: Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home and away teams. -Joe _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.? http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon Mar 5 14:39:18 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:39:18 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > and away teams. Both metaserver.us.netrek.org and metserver2.us.netrek.org look fine to me. I see no references to the clue server. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070305/794ffaa4/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Mon Mar 5 15:08:10 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:08:10 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: It's strange. Was happening last night too. They would pop-up in the listing, then they would clear later. Thought it was fixed last night but then seen them again this morning. Just checked and they aren't in the listing now but if you go to http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ it shows them. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" >To: Joe Evango >CC: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? >Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:39:18 -0600 >On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash >during > > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > > and away teams. > > Both metaserver.us.netrek.org and metserver2.us.netrek.org > look fine to me. I see no references to the clue server. > > > > John > > >-- >"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." >As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked >to >be put through to an engineer. > >"My other computer is your windows box." > Ralf Hildebrandt ><< attach3 >> _________________________________________________________________ Don?t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft? Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 15:54:54 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:54:54 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:31:26PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home > and away teams. Which metaserver? I've just checked, can't see what you report. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From karthik at karthik.com Mon Mar 5 15:59:28 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:59:28 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305215454.GB6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: Do you perhaps have a metacache problem? Try clearing your metaserver cache file, if it exists. There was a clue game yesterday afternoon, so perhaps you were seeing legitimate entries then that have continued to be cached. From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 16:04:29 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:04:29 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:08:10PM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > It's strange. Was happening last night too. They would pop-up in the > listing, then they would clear later. Thought it was fixed last night but > then seen them again this morning. Just checked and they aren't in the > listing now but if you go to http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ it shows > them. Yes, http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ will show them but the clients will not. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From williamb at its.caltech.edu Mon Mar 5 16:15:59 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 14:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you are seeing is a result of the UDPmetacache in xp 2006 v1.2 I believe, it keeps previously seen servers around in cache..I saw the same effect when using the playnetrek.org client, guess it had the clue servers in the UDPmetacache. It's supposed to only list them as "Active" though instead of giving a player count..hmm, oh well, it goes away eventually. Bill On Mon, 5 Mar 2007, Joe Evango wrote: > Still some listings leftover from a clue game. Did the server crash during > the last clue game? The metaserver is showing 4 people on both the home and > away teams. > > -Joe > > _________________________________________________________________ > Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.? > http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline > > > From quozl at us.netrek.org Mon Mar 5 16:30:28 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:30:28 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> The metaserver has to resist attacks, and so it has limited trust in the information provided by servers or clients. At the moment, it will list a temporary clue server for a fair while, because we lack a mechanism to determine when the server should be removed. We can't add a "remove me" mechanism, since we have no way of knowing if it came from a legitimate source. Here's a new method ... in the original initial solicitation, if we change the protocol to add a flag that says "expire this within hours", and change the metaserver to client protocol accordingly, ... just like a DNS time to live concept. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From karthik at karthik.com Mon Mar 5 16:35:32 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 17:35:32 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305223028.GE6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <1169B67D-F28C-4C38-8E1A-A2FA3E109279@karthik.com> Quozl: I think the timeout works well. a clue server can't know how long it'll be up for how about reducing it to 5 minutes? then, modifying the inl bot to only advertise if both teams have captains that'll automatically remove the listing when a game ends accounting for OT as for trust... a delist packet isn't a horrible idea, if we made it a 3 way handshake, but that's kinda complex right now you can just list another server with the same name, anyways, if you want to dos it. or 20 other servers From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 00:17:15 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 01:17:15 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/5/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Yes, http://metaserver.netrek.org:3522/ will show them but the clients > will not. When I go there I either get a blank white page or it gives the error, "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading." Zach From stephen.thorne at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 00:34:11 2007 From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:34:11 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> On 3/6/07, Zach wrote: > When I go there I either get a blank white page or it gives the error, > "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading." Works for me. Try turning off your windows firewall or using a different browser. -- Stephen Thorne "Give me enough bandwidth and a place to sit and I will move the world." --Jonathan Lange From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 6 01:49:09 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:49:09 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Metaserver not updating? In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070305203918.GW16322@mail.beanhq.com> <20070305220429.GD6324@us.netrek.org> <3e8ca5c80703052234tc396158y74cbf530b9b2759b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070306074909.GD25601@us.netrek.org> That URL is not intended to work. It does not meet HTTP 0.9, 1.0, 1.1 or 1.2. It only works for some people by accident, where the web browser is willing to assume that what is returned is plain text. http://metaserver.netrek.org:1080/ is intended to be the URL for HTTP access to the metaserver. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From joe at playnetrek.org Tue Mar 6 19:10:17 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:10:17 -0800 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player Message-ID: Received an email from someone who seems fairly new. He has some ideas for a new server which sounds similar to Paradise but on a much larger scale. I know we don't have anywhere near the number of players needed to support something like this but I told him I would forward his email onto the server developers for review, so here you go: Hi, I used to play Netrek under the name of jamestc on my mum's computer At the moment I am using a different computer which can't run Netrek but I will play again when I get my new CPU. Anyway, I just came up with an idea for a new server (you may already have something like this, but I don't know that) All the current servers are great, one reasonable sized galaxy where havoc reigns every night. But I think that there should be a server for the people who like exploration and open space. Similar to the regular ones, but on a MUCH larger scale, and with extras. Such as clouds of Nebula gas, Black holes, asteroid belts etc. so its basically an entire map stretching from one edge of space to the other. And instead of just flying from one territory to another randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the Romulans planets or whatever. of course this would mean that this particular server would need the capacity to hold a few more players than just 16 split into 2 teams of 8. Prehaps there could be about 25 in each galaxy, and all 4 galaxy can be full at once? that would be awesome unless im just going over the top... lol. but compare this new server to the episodes of star-trek seen on TV, they would be quite similar, but with less talking and more fighting :P Thats it really. Just saying I thing Netrek is a cool game, and giving you the idea of this new server, and pointing out that more spaces for players would be a good idea. Prehaps you could make 2 or 3, maybe even 4 servers like this incase one of them got full. hope you take these ideas into consideration, and maybe even create the server for real. Yours jamestc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070306/e8411b64/attachment.htm From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 6 20:00:29 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:00:29 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070307020029.GC4864@us.netrek.org> Several of his ideas are quite good, and map to what Kathy Sierra was saying in her presentation. The gradual revelation idea, the exploration of space, is a particularly attractive part of gaming. The only way we satisfy that at the moment is having the planets scanned by orbiting, or by the visibility of enemies according to proximity of friends. We could add a seen-on-tactical-by-team bit to each planet, and only send them out to the client when someone has visited recently. Certainly an idea for a sturgeon enhancement. We have pl_info, which is a mask of teams that have orbited a planet, and are kept informed after that about planet attributes, until the planet is taken. We could add pl_discovered, which would be a mask of teams that have seen the planet on the tactical. The actual implementation wouldn't be difficult. Is he willing to help? Here's a start ... diff -rN -u old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h --- old-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h 2007-03-07 12:57:32.000000000 +1100 +++ new-netrek-server/Vanilla/include/struct.h 2007-03-07 12:57:35.000000000 +1100 @@ -586,6 +586,7 @@ int pl_info; /* Teams which have info on planets */ int pl_deadtime; /* Time before planet will support life */ int pl_couptime; /* Time before coup may take place */ + int pl_discovered; /* teams which have seen planet on tactical */ }; #define MVALID 0x01 -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 7 07:26:06 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:26:06 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Joe Evango wrote on Tue 6.Mar'07 at 17:10:17 -0800 -= > He has some ideas for a new server which sounds similar to > Paradise but on a much larger scale. It sounds very much like Paradise. What scale? I guess more players? Planets? Shouldn't be too hard to expand that (0-9a-zA-Z + 2 more == 64 total players ;). > {...} but I told him I would forward his email onto the server > developers for review, so here you go: Let him join himself to take the flak. ;) At least tell him about Paradise and that he should give it a try. And visit #netrek + #paradise next to this list. Does Paradise have this ...? > But I think that there should be a server for the people who > like exploration and open space. Yes, with SC not needing to orbit (makes them "real" scouts ;). > Such as clouds of Nebula gas, Black holes, asteroid belts etc. > so its basically an entire map stretching from one edge of space > to the other. Yes, although many features appeared when the hightime has passed, so it wasn't tested to the limits. Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel error-free, or at least could be improved performance-wise. Or maybe my client was just too old. ;) > And instead of just flying from one territory to another > randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with > all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an > asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the > Romulans planets or whatever. Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) > Prehaps there could be about 25 in each galaxy, and all 4 galaxy > can be full at once? that would be awesome unless im just going > over the top... lol. Uh, I guess that would be a _lot_ more players than ever had been on any P-server, but hey... why has '0' to be limited to just 1 race? Why not have F0-9a-zA-Z and likewise R0-9a-zA-Z, this gives 64/race. > but compare this new server to the episodes of star-trek seen on > TV, they would be quite similar, but with less talking and more > fighting :P a) Paradise is definitely closer to TNG. b) That doesn't mean there is _less_ talking than in Bronco. c) Talking is still very important, especially on the long lonesome warp trips to other galaxies, so ... combat- wise there is not necessarily more action, it's just different. d) But given the new range of possibilities, it likewise offers and requires a new range of strategies and tactics, which due to the nature of Bronco don't (can't) vary as much. > Thats it really. Just saying I thing Netrek is a cool game, and > giving you the idea of this new server, and pointing out that more > spaces for players would be a good idea. Prehaps you could make 2 > or 3, maybe even 4 servers like this incase one of them got full. *lol* > hope you take these ideas into consideration, and maybe even > create the server for real. Tell him about Paradise. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 07:38:05 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 08:38:05 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel What is the server address? Zach From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 7 08:49:16 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:49:16 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Wed 7.Mar'07 at 8:38:05 -0500 -= > On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > > Having joined Kud's server a few weeks ago, it didn't feel > > What is the server address? That was actually months ago, I'm not sure the server is still up, was for testing only. Ask Kud when you meet him in #netrek again. There are no known active P-servers around currently. Somebody has offered to run one once he gets to extend his server code to have solicitation (besides recovering from a general hardware(?) failure recently). When he succeeds, you'll see it in metas. ;) ("Somebody": don't be shy, ask for help if you need it. :) Zach: DO NOT bother to contact that "somebody", he'll get to us when ready for it (that's why I don't disclose his name right now). Then there was an uncontrolled one running at paradise.games.uk.demon.net, not sure what happened to it. I guess it's dead by now since nobody could find it anymore after the metas cleanup (yup, no response, it's dead, Jim). Let's see, maybe somebody (from #paradise?) can setup a functional server again soon, so that the newbies have a choice. Maybe this new player's thinking applies to more newbies in that the "richer" features of Paradise can better lure in/ keep newbies busy than Bronco, and later when they mature, they discover "the original game". -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 09:12:48 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:12:48 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070307144916.GB8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/7/07, Rado S wrote: > > That was actually months ago, I'm not sure the server is still up, > was for testing only. Ask Kud when you meet him in #netrek again. > > There are no known active P-servers around currently. > > Somebody has offered to run one once he gets to extend his server > code to have solicitation (besides recovering from a general > hardware(?) failure recently). > When he succeeds, you'll see it in metas. ;) > ("Somebody": don't be shy, ask for help if you need it. :) > > Zach: DO NOT bother to contact that "somebody", > he'll get to us when ready for it (that's why I don't disclose his > name right now). I can't contact someone if they don't know who they are so relax lol :-) > Then there was an uncontrolled one running at > paradise.games.uk.demon.net, not sure what happened to it. > I guess it's dead by now since nobody could find it anymore after > the metas cleanup (yup, no response, it's dead, Jim). There was another one but I can't find it no. > Let's see, maybe somebody (from #paradise?) can setup a functional > server again soon, so that the newbies have a choice. Didn't know about that channel cool. That is on Freenode I assume. > Maybe this new player's thinking applies to more newbies in that > the "richer" features of Paradise can better lure in/ keep newbies > busy than Bronco, and later when they mature, they discover "the > original game". Good idea. We must have at least ONE paradise server running! And it must have missiles :) Zach From darius at dons.net.au Sun Mar 11 18:27:01 2007 From: darius at dons.net.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:57:01 +1030 Subject: [netrek-dev] configure problems Message-ID: <200703120957.02476.darius@dons.net.au> I was chatting to someone in IRC (CC'd) who was trying to build the server and they got this problem which I could replicate.. [inchoate 9:38] ~/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 >env CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib ./configure --prefix=/usr/local checking for used sources... Vanilla SERVER checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking for gcc... gcc checking for C compiler default output file name... a.out checking whether the C compiler works... yes checking whether we are cross compiling... no checking for suffix of executables... checking for suffix of object files... o checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes checking whether gcc accepts -g... yes checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... none needed checking how to run the C preprocessor... gcc -E checking whether ln -s works... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for grep that handles long lines and -e... /usr/bin/grep checking for egrep... /usr/bin/grep -E checking for AIX... no checking for inline... inline checking if fd_set requires sys/select.h... no checking for ANSI C header files... yes checking for sys/types.h... yes checking for sys/stat.h... yes checking for stdlib.h... yes checking for string.h... yes checking for memory.h... yes checking for strings.h... yes checking for inttypes.h... yes checking for stdint.h... yes checking for unistd.h... yes checking for unistd.h... (cached) yes checking for memory.h... (cached) yes checking math.h usability... yes checking math.h presence... yes checking for math.h... yes checking for stdlib.h... (cached) yes checking sys/timeb.h usability... yes checking sys/timeb.h presence... yes checking for sys/timeb.h... yes checking sys/ptyio.h usability... no checking sys/ptyio.h presence... no checking for sys/ptyio.h... no checking sys/fcntl.h usability... yes checking sys/fcntl.h presence... yes checking for sys/fcntl.h... yes checking fcntl.h usability... yes checking fcntl.h presence... yes checking for fcntl.h... yes checking ctype.h usability... yes checking ctype.h presence... yes checking for ctype.h... yes checking machine/endian.h usability... yes checking machine/endian.h presence... yes checking for machine/endian.h... yes checking sys/resource.h usability... yes checking sys/resource.h presence... yes checking for sys/resource.h... yes checking sys/wait.h usability... yes checking sys/wait.h presence... yes checking for sys/wait.h... yes checking netinet/in.h usability... yes checking netinet/in.h presence... yes checking for netinet/in.h... yes checking sys/filio.h usability... yes checking sys/filio.h presence... yes checking for sys/filio.h... yes checking gdbm.h usability... yes checking gdbm.h presence... yes checking for gdbm.h... yes checking ncurses.h usability... yes checking ncurses.h presence... yes checking for ncurses.h... yes checking for gdbm_open in -lgdbm... yes checking for wait3 that fills in rusage... yes checking for pid_t... yes checking for uid_t in sys/types.h... yes checking for size_t... yes checking vfork.h usability... no checking vfork.h presence... no checking for vfork.h... no checking for fork... yes checking for vfork... yes checking for working fork... yes checking for working vfork... (cached) yes checking whether struct tm is in sys/time.h or time.h... time.h checking for itimer in time.h... no checking for long... yes checking size of long... 4 checking for u_int in sys/types.h... yes checking for PATH_MAX in limits.h... yes checking for main in -lgdi32... no checking for X... libraries /usr/X11R6/lib, headers /usr/X11R6/include Warning: x_includes was going to be blank, check with quozl checking for mp.h... yes checking for gmp.h... yes yes checking res-rsa/configure... RSA utilities found checking for main in -lXbsd... no checking for main in -lsocket... no checking for main in -lresolv... no checking for main in -linet... no checking for main in -lnsl... no checking for main in -lseq... no checking for main in -lsun... no checking for main in -lipc... no checking for main in -lshm... no checking for main in -lstuff... no checking for crypt in -lcrypt... yes checking for main in -ltermcap... yes checking for newwin in -lncurses... yes checking return type of signal handlers... void checking for sys/wait.h that is POSIX.1 compatible... (cached) yes checking for restartable system calls... yes checking for signals style... BSD checking for usleep... yes checking for random... yes checking for setstate... yes checking for strftime... yes checking for ftime... no checking for strcmpi... no checking for strncmpi... no checking for main in -lm... yes checking for nint... no checking for nint in -lsunmath... no checking for random... (cached) yes checking for strdup... yes checking for rint... yes checking build system type... i386-unknown-freebsd7.0 checking host system type... i386-unknown-freebsd7.0 checking for a sed that does not truncate output... /usr/bin/sed checking for ld used by gcc... /usr/bin/ld checking if the linker (/usr/bin/ld) is GNU ld... yes checking for /usr/bin/ld option to reload object files... -r checking for BSD-compatible nm... /usr/bin/nm -B checking how to recognise dependent libraries... pass_all checking dlfcn.h usability... yes checking dlfcn.h presence... yes checking for dlfcn.h... yes checking for g++... g++ checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... yes checking whether g++ accepts -g... yes checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... g++ -E checking for g77... no checking for xlf... no checking for f77... f77 checking whether we are using the GNU Fortran 77 compiler... yes checking whether f77 accepts -g... yes checking the maximum length of command line arguments... 196608 checking command to parse /usr/bin/nm -B output from gcc object... ok checking for objdir... .libs checking for ar... ar checking for ranlib... ranlib checking for strip... strip checking if gcc supports -fno-rtti -fno-exceptions... no checking for gcc option to produce PIC... -fPIC checking if gcc PIC flag -fPIC works... yes checking if gcc static flag -static works... yes checking if gcc supports -c -o file.o... yes checking whether the gcc linker (/usr/bin/ld) supports shared libraries... yes checking whether -lc should be explicitly linked in... yes checking dynamic linker characteristics... freebsd7.0 ld.so checking how to hardcode library paths into programs... immediate checking whether stripping libraries is possible... yes checking if libtool supports shared libraries... yes checking whether to build shared libraries... yes checking whether to build static libraries... yes checking for OSX ranlib... drat - yes checking for netstat... yes checking for uptime... yes configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating system.mk config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating ntserv/Makefile config.status: creating tools/Makefile config.status: creating sequencer/Makefile config.status: creating newstartd/Makefile config.status: creating robots/Makefile config.status: creating keycomp/Makefile config.status: creating xsg/Makefile config.status: creating pledit/Makefile config.status: creating robotd/Makefile config.status: creating docs/Makefile config.status: creating tools/no_geno_timer config.status: creating tools/geno_timer config.status: creating docs/sample_geno_timer_crontab config.status: creating docs/sample_sysdef config.status: creating tools/setpath config.status: creating tools/setpath.csh config.status: creating include/config.h config.status: include/config.h is unchanged === configuring in res-rsa (/usr/home/darius/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1/res-rsa) configure: running /usr/local/bin/bash ./configure '--prefix=/usr/local' 'LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib' 'CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include' --cache-file=/dev/null --srcdir=. configure: warning: LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib: invalid host type configure: warning: CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include: invalid host type configure: error: can only configure for one host and one target at a time configure: error: ./configure failed for res-rsa If I disable res-rsa configure finishes fine but building doesn't work.. [inchoate 9:40] ~/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1 >gmake cd ntserv; gmake libnetrek.a gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/home/darius/projects/netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1/ntserv' gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o alarm.o alarm.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o balance.o balance.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o bans.o bans.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o bay.o bay.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o blog.o blog.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o coup.o coup.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c -o data.o data.c gcc -g -O2 -Wall -I../include -c db.c db.c:14:18: gdbm.h: No such file or directory db.c: In function `db_index_fetch': It would appear that the Makefiles do not honour the CPPFLAGS/CFLAGS/LDFFLAGS passed in via env vars to configure, hence the build fails. I will try and fix it but me and autotools are not good friends so perhaps someone with more experience could have a go. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070312/2a61eaaf/attachment.pgp From narcis at luky.nl Mon Mar 12 17:34:06 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:34:06 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> G'day, i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? I've browsed most of the client code but have a hard time tracking what happens to the message. (that is i see no difference) any insight would be greatly appreciated, Chris From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Mar 12 18:00:00 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:00:00 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070312230000.GA2944@carlos-desktop> Ah, looking at an old explaination from the hockey RCD dust-up from ages ago. (1998) --Carlos V. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well... here's how it works.... Each RC_DISTRESS compatible client can make the distress call appear as whatever you like through their .xtrekrc... If you DONT have a new enough client the server will do a default parsing of the distress call and you will see it like that. Also if the server is old then the distress call sent out by each client will appear the way _the sender_ likes to have them displayed. Let me summarize with an example: F0 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 maggots.' F1 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 armies.' F2 likes 'F' to say 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' The server default is 'Carrying 4.' Note: Advanced RC_DISTRESS users should note that 'F' can be remapped easily in at least 2 different ways. For example throught .xtrekrc dist.(.carrying: %T%c: Carrying %a maggots. singleMacro: ( (this will make 'X(' or '(' be the same as 'F' used to be) There will be more documentation on this coming later but basically the syntax is the same as SMARTMACRO and NEWMACRO. ----------- On a NEW server: Case 1: All of them are using a new client. F1 will ALWAYS see 'Carrying x armies.' No matter who sent it. Case 2: Only F1 is using an old client. F1 will see the _server_ set defaults for the carrying call from everybody. Note that the calls from F0 and F2 will appear in the same format to him on this server (but may appear in a different format on different servers). F2 and F0 will see F1's client-defined distress calls. --------------- On an old server: F1 will see whatever the sender likes to see (in this case the sender sends the pre-formatted text instead of the RC_DISTRESS short-hand). So a 'F' from F2 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 lawyers. 20% fuel' a 'F' from F0 will appear to everybody as: 'Carrying 4 maggots.' From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Mar 12 17:57:33 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:57:33 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070312225733.GA3520@carlos-desktop> You have no control on what the other side does with an RCD. That's why it's called a Receiver Configurable Distress. If you want to send the 'taking' RCD, your client will send the 'taking' token to the appropriate receivers, and those receivers display that token depending on how each individual receiver has configured displaying that token. If either the server or the receiver's client does not support RCDs, or has RCDs turned off, they degenerate into macros and the receiver will see the text you sent. --Carlos V. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Mon Mar 12 18:54:12 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress > which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This > seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but > as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the RCD flag set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the RCD number (distress, carry, take, etc.) and things like the sender's wtemp and etemp, armies carried, ship nearest their mouse cursor, etc. The format of these bytes is documented in the client source somewhere. The receiver is the one responsible for turning this into actual text. For beeplite, it can be turned into graphical cues. In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that no one has managed to copy yet. From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 13 02:11:01 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:11:01 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 02:26:06PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > Yes, with SC not needing to orbit (makes them "real" scouts ;). That sounds useful. I'd take a patch that adds that as a sysdef controlled feature. PARADISE_SC_PLANET_VIEW perhaps? > > And instead of just flying from one territory to another > > randomally, players actually exit one galaxy, e.g. the one with > > all the human planets, fly though some space, maybe dodge an > > asteroid field on the way, and enter a different galaxy with the > > Romulans planets or whatever. > > Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) But Paradise keeps everything on the same galactic, right? If we ever need exploration of an area larger than the galactic, the server could keep an internal set of coordinates for objects, and give a limited galactic view by providing only some objects with an offset. Then it would work with older clients. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 06:47:51 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:47:51 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 18:11:01 +1100 -= > > Yes, that's Paradise's "real" warp. ;) > > But Paradise keeps everything on the same galactic, right? Paradise has 200Kx200K universe. There is total view (6x6 sector grids, all objects packed tightly) and zoomed view (3x3 == 1/4 total ~= Bronco size [120Kx120K?!]). > If we ever need exploration of an area larger than the galactic, > the server could keep an internal set of coordinates for > objects, and give a limited galactic view by providing only some > objects with an offset. Then it would work with older clients. Paradise does this zooming client-side IIRC. BTW, what happened to this new player? Can we talk to him live (here, rgn or #netrek)? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 06:52:22 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:52:22 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Mon 12.Mar'07 at 16:54:12 -0700 -= > When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the > RCD flag set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the > RCD number (distress, carry, take, etc.) and things like the > sender's wtemp and etemp, armies carried, ship nearest their > mouse cursor, etc. What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > no one has managed to copy yet. D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? I thought we were a community to work together == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:38:03 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:38:03 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070307132606.GA8822@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313071101.GC13308@us.netrek.org> <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/13/07, Rado S wrote: > Paradise has 200Kx200K universe. > There is total view (6x6 sector grids, all objects packed tightly) > and zoomed view (3x3 == 1/4 total ~= Bronco size [120Kx120K?!]). I think bronco is 100Kx100K universe. Zach From williamb at its.caltech.edu Tue Mar 13 13:38:24 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > > no one has managed to copy yet. > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > I thought we were a community to work together > == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. > At least some good came out of Trent's post, I found another feature to liberate from his code base, his auto-declare peace on entry stuff. I didn't think the voice stuff was worth taking. Any useful features in Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things that were found only in Paradise-2000. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 13 14:03:34 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD... In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, William Balcerski wrote: > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > > > > In Paradise-2000, custom voice messages can be played with > > > information from the RCD in them. That's one of my features that > > > no one has managed to copy yet. > > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > I thought we were a community to work together Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others as their source when they copy them. > > == share and help each other rather than stay for oneself. > > > At least some good came out of Trent's post, I found another feature to > liberate from his code base, his auto-declare peace on entry stuff. I > didn't think the voice stuff was worth taking. Any useful features in Bill, admit it, you'd love to copy my voice stuff but you can't figure out how. > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. Features > added to XP 2006 include a large number of things that were found only in > Paradise-2000. So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Tue Mar 13 14:42:31 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:42:31 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player In-Reply-To: <20070313114751.GA16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: His name is James Turner-Crowe. I just sent him an email requesting he join this mailing list with instructions on how to join. -Joe >From: Rado S >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Email from a new player >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 12:47:51 +0100 > > >BTW, what happened to this new player? >Can we talk to him live (here, rgn or #netrek)? > >-- >? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! >EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. >You're responsible for ALL of it: you get what you give. > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline From regrado at web.de Tue Mar 13 15:24:58 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:24:58 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 12:03:34 -0700 -= > > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? What about this one? > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > > I thought we were a community to work together > > Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. And you counter bad support with the same bad support? Hey, you're so much better. :-/ > Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. Neither of the 2 are reason to keep your stuff for yourself. As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. As long as only information that is already available is used (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is presented: if the client has the info, go for it. I fully agree with that. Even more so, given the need for easier access to the game, I'd welcome that _all_ info would be presented to the (newbie) players as easily as possible. All team-info == good (display as you see fit), enemy-info (beyond pos visible to own team) == bad. Do not "create" info == compute new info from given info (like aiming aids for cloakers) People crying "info-borg" should think what they prefer: - clueless twinks they can yell at and out of the game, - newbies who learn to do the right things by doing what the info/ client tells them even though they might not yet grasp the underlying reasons/ concepts for it, and before they can figure out how to _talk/read_? Many people act first, think/ talk later. :( As much as this is against the _ideal_ netrek player, that's how newbies get into it. So called "info-borgs" do _not_ destroy the game: despite having the info visible (and you might know what to do with that info for yourself), you _still_ have to coordinate with your team to succeed (unless your whole team communicates via ESP/ telepathy). Quiet newbies with the info ready can still be useful even though they are mute. Over time they'll want more and begin to learn, eventually talk/ read. > Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others > as their source when they copy them. There is nothing you lose when you share your code with the community. Quite the opposite: when you share, then all win. The community _knows_ what you do (or don't) and they are the only who matter, not single childish lamers to whom you pay too much attention. If you share your achievements publicly, then the public will know. That's the safest way to get credit (and respect). (as example: nobody can claim to own linux, or when they do, they fail because the community wouldn't let it happen, they know better) You distrust anyone (everyone?) of the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek alive)? What _exact_ netrek incident are you talking about where you have been mistreated? > > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. > > Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things > > that were found only in Paradise-2000. > > So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of > things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? Why are you insisting so much on this credit thing? Are we talking here about some money? You can't credit ideas. Many people have ideas, but not all people implement them nor all ideas get implemented. In a shared project this even doesn't matter. The only people netrek has to fight are outside lawyers who want to make money with other people's work, not inside members. If it's not for the money, what else is credit good for? Among us, the netrek community anyway?! Open your code, let people see, then you get credit where credit is due. If you'd open up, you might notice that others have ideas, too. But you don't even give a chance for that. You are not the only/ 1st person who can do things. But even if, why not share it with those who will respect you for what you do? (the community as whole) Not all are childish ("stealing your credit"). Answering such childishness with likewise childishness doesn't bring you more credit. As you might have learned (or not), people don't remember you as "hey, give him credit for XYZ" (even if you deserved it!), but rather "hey, he's the one who takes other peoples' credit to brag about the own that he built on top of it without returning it back for what he got for free" and justifies it by "others stealing from him", when there is no such a thing like "stealing credit" possible in open source, but rather waste of resources for locked code that has to be recoded. Is this the kind of credit you are after? And then there are those who make fun of you because of this, and you still jump on it to defend rather than to "get a clue". Taking open code and locking it away from others is stealing. If you want to make money with it, fine. Otherwise let it live and grow openly and freely to flourish for all, even for you with the help of others. What good is it to have different people do the same thing? Isn't it better to save the time to have 2 new things instead? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue Mar 13 16:51:12 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:51:12 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> Calm down kiddies. Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source he started with to lock it up, Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, and I've tried hard to keep up with Bill's changes and push what I like into COW on Linux. Where I have noticed that the feature was reverse engineered from Paradise-2000, I've tried to make a note of that in the COW commits. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 18:12:28 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: I think Rado eloquently described the meritocracy of the open source philosophy. When code is shared it benefits the entire community. If someone was the first to think of a certain feature and the first to realize it in code or in a novel fashion then yes they should be credited. Not getting into legal matters it seems to me to be an issue of common courtesy and intellectual honesty. There is a GPL project that tracks down commercial companies who have basically taken GPL released code and are using it to make money without any proper attribution, further they are also violating other portions of the GPL. This is reprehensible but it still happens. The more eyes looking at code the better I say. Zach On 3/13/07, Rado S wrote: > =- Trent Piepho wrote on Tue 13.Mar'07 at 12:03:34 -0700 -= > > > > > What I missed for the RCDs is all the nice Paradise macro features. > > > > Have/ can you extend(ed) it to make use of them in RCD, too? > > What about this one? > > > > > D'oh, are we in some kind of coding competition? > > > > I thought we were a community to work together > > > > Tell that to the people who release microsoft only clients. > > And you counter bad support with the same bad support? > Hey, you're so much better. :-/ > > > Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg. > > Neither of the 2 are reason to keep your stuff for yourself. > > > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > As long as only information that is already available is used > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > I fully agree with that. > > Even more so, given the need for easier access to the game, I'd > welcome that _all_ info would be presented to the (newbie) players > as easily as possible. > > All team-info == good (display as you see fit), > enemy-info (beyond pos visible to own team) == bad. > Do not "create" info == compute new info from given info (like > aiming aids for cloakers) > > People crying "info-borg" should think what they prefer: > - clueless twinks they can yell at and out of the game, > - newbies who learn to do the right things by doing what the info/ > client tells them even though they might not yet grasp the > underlying reasons/ concepts for it, and before they can figure > out how to _talk/read_? > > Many people act first, think/ talk later. :( > As much as this is against the _ideal_ netrek player, that's how > newbies get into it. > > So called "info-borgs" do _not_ destroy the game: despite having > the info visible (and you might know what to do with that info for > yourself), you _still_ have to coordinate with your team to > succeed (unless your whole team communicates via ESP/ telepathy). > Quiet newbies with the info ready can still be useful even though > they are mute. Over time they'll want more and begin to learn, > eventually talk/ read. > > > Tell that to people who don't have the decency to credit others > > as their source when they copy them. > > There is nothing you lose when you share your code with the > community. Quite the opposite: when you share, then all win. > The community _knows_ what you do (or don't) and they are the only > who matter, not single childish lamers to whom you pay too much > attention. > > If you share your achievements publicly, then the public will know. > That's the safest way to get credit (and respect). > (as example: nobody can claim to own linux, or when they do, they fail > because the community wouldn't let it happen, they know better) > > You distrust anyone (everyone?) of the netrek "board" (the people > who currently run what keeps netrek alive)? > > What _exact_ netrek incident are you talking about where you have > been mistreated? > > > > Paradise-2000 can (and have been) recoded into public source. > > > Features added to XP 2006 include a large number of things > > > that were found only in Paradise-2000. > > > > So why don't you credit me as the source of "a large number of > > things" instead of pretending they were your ideas? > > Why are you insisting so much on this credit thing? > Are we talking here about some money? > You can't credit ideas. Many people have ideas, but not all people > implement them nor all ideas get implemented. > > In a shared project this even doesn't matter. The only people > netrek has to fight are outside lawyers who want to make money > with other people's work, not inside members. > If it's not for the money, what else is credit good for? > Among us, the netrek community anyway?! > > Open your code, let people see, then you get credit where credit > is due. If you'd open up, you might notice that others have ideas, > too. But you don't even give a chance for that. > You are not the only/ 1st person who can do things. > > But even if, why not share it with those who will respect you for > what you do? (the community as whole) > > Not all are childish ("stealing your credit"). > Answering such childishness with likewise childishness doesn't > bring you more credit. As you might have learned (or not), people > don't remember you as > "hey, give him credit for XYZ" (even if you deserved it!), > but rather > "hey, he's the one who takes other peoples' credit to brag > about the own that he built on top of it without returning > it back for what he got for free" > and justifies it by "others stealing from him", when there is no > such a thing like "stealing credit" possible in open source, but > rather waste of resources for locked code that has to be recoded. > Is this the kind of credit you are after? > > And then there are those who make fun of you because of this, and > you still jump on it to defend rather than to "get a clue". > > Taking open code and locking it away from others is stealing. > If you want to make money with it, fine. > Otherwise let it live and grow openly and freely to flourish for all, > even for you with the help of others. > What good is it to have different people do the same thing? > Isn't it better to save the time to have 2 new things instead? > > -- > (c) Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! > EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. > You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 11:36:43 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:36:43 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem Message-ID: Was hoping someone could help me troubleshoot a problem some people are having with Windows 98. Have seen several comments regarding some people having trouble running XP Mod 4.4.0.4 and XP 2006 on Windows 98. I am trying to find out if there is a compatibility issue with the actual clients, the installer, or the tutorial and config utility. If someone is using Windows 98 can you download and try installing both Windows clients listed on playnetrek.org? If it is failing during the install please let me know at which point during the install this is happening. If there are any error messages also make note of those as well. Please email me the results. Thanks much, Joe _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From jrd at gerdesas.com Wed Mar 14 11:46:26 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:46:26 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314164626.GL16322@mail.beanhq.com> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:36:43AM -0600, Joe Evango wrote: > Was hoping someone could help me troubleshoot a problem some people are > having with Windows 98. Have seen several comments regarding some people > having trouble running XP Mod 4.4.0.4 and XP 2006 on Windows 98. I am under the impression from comments made by Bill that the 4.4.0.4 release of XP Mod does not run under '98 at all. > I am trying to find out if there is a compatibility issue with the actual > clients, the installer, or the tutorial and config utility. If someone is > using Windows 98 can you download and try installing both Windows clients > listed on playnetrek.org? If it is failing during the install please let me > know at which point during the install this is happening. If there are any > error messages also make note of those as well. Please email me the > results. Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people need to upgrade to a supported OS. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070314/1a9fb8b4/attachment.pgp From sgtjiminy at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:06:42 2007 From: sgtjiminy at hotmail.com (James Turner-Crowe) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:06:42 +0000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here goes.... >Netrek Classic (2MB) I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick Tutorial etc. When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: / ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA [ok] in that exact text. >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) ho hum.... my pc isnt the fastest in the world, but im sure if my mums pc can play it my one can (if the errors can be fixed of course) when the download finished this came up: (x) D:\Netrek\netrek.exe A device attached to the system is not functioning This could be because I tried to run netrek classic again halfway through the download, or just another message for Netrek Classic. I did install it onto my D drive. Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List opened auto The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles with names underneath them... also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the "clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size as the players list, and the players list was gone) last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but since then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.co.uk/ From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:10:07 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:07 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: <20070314164626.GL16322@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: I agree it is an old OS but I am finding people still using it. Seems like a lot of people in countries outside the U.S. still use it and also students who have had computers given to them and can't afford to upgrade. I remember the days of having to eat top ramen and hot dogs so I can relate. If the problem is with the installer or any of the VB apps I would like to either use a different installer or modify the VB apps to help accommodate these users. I thought XP Mod 4.4.0.2 with the installer and config utility worked on Windows 98 in 2004 but I have applied some great MS service packs for Visual Studio since then and I am wondering if I got hit with the typical results of a Microsoft update, fix one thing and break another. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" >To: Joe Evango > > Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS > has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people > need to upgrade to a supported OS. > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:22:12 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:22:12 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much James! Good to see you on the list. For those wanting to speak with the player who emailed me those server ideas last week James Turner-Crowe is the guy. -Joe >From: "James Turner-Crowe" >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:06:42 +0000 > >Here goes.... > > >Netrek Classic (2MB) >I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick >Tutorial etc. >When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: > >/ ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is >linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA >[ok] > >in that exact text. > > >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) > >ho hum.... my pc isnt the fastest in the world, but im sure if my mums pc >can play it my one can >(if the errors can be fixed of course) > >when the download finished this came up: > >(x) D:\Netrek\netrek.exe >A device attached to the system is not functioning > >This could be because I tried to run netrek classic again halfway through >the download, or just another message for Netrek Classic. I did install it >onto my D drive. > >Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List >opened auto > >The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles >with names underneath them... >also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen >with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, >then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the >"clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small >section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size >as >the players list, and the players list was gone) > >last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but >since >then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Mail. >http://ideas.live.co.uk/ > > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From keyos at keyos.org Wed Mar 14 12:22:51 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:22:51 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Latest additions to XP Mod (double buffering IIRC) made it only playable on XP/2000 + systems. Microsoft do not backport newer SDK functions to not supported OSes. If you want to play on Win98 you should either use older versions of NetrekXP (not sure if they are still available on netrek.org) or use COW instead (it should work on any windows system that has cygwin support). Stas. On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Joe Evango wrote: > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:10:07 -0600 > From: Joe Evango > Reply-To: joe at playnetrek.org, > Netrek Development Mailing List > To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem > > I agree it is an old OS but I am finding people still using it. Seems like > a lot of people in countries outside the U.S. still use it and also students > who have had computers given to them and can't afford to upgrade. I > remember the days of having to eat top ramen and hot dogs so I can relate. > If the problem is with the installer or any of the VB apps I would like to > either use a different installer or modify the VB apps to help accommodate > these users. > > I thought XP Mod 4.4.0.2 with the installer and config utility worked on > Windows 98 in 2004 but I have applied some great MS service packs for Visual > Studio since then and I am wondering if I got hit with the typical results > of a Microsoft update, fix one thing and break another. > > -Joe > > >From: "John R. Dennison" > >To: Joe Evango > > > > Might I enquire as to why you are concerned with '98? The OS > > has not been supported for a long time, it's legacy, and people > > need to upgrade to a supported OS. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. > Intro*Terms > https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From narcis at luky.nl Wed Mar 14 13:52:32 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:52:32 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> Thanks for all the great reponses. > On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: >> i'm trying to create RCD and have implemented most as a distress >> which gets converted to a message string and then send as macro. This >> seems to work, but the other side is not interpreting it as a RCD but >> as a general macro. So what makes a RCD a RCD? > > When you send an RCD, it sends a special message with with the RCD > flag > set. The message is just a few bytes that encode the RCD number > (distress, > carry, take, etc.) and things like the sender's wtemp and etemp, > armies > carried, ship nearest their mouse cursor, etc. > > The format of these bytes is documented in the client source > somewhere. > Yes i finally tracked down where in the code, and see it is building a message string (bytes) which the client or server handles differently. I believe it is using hte first byte to discover it is an RCD and not a normal message: buffer[0] = (char)((macro_flag ? 1 : 0) << 5 | distress_type); Since Normal messages are sent in the same way (CP_MESSAGE) on the receive side i see it is handled through short packages SP_S_WARNING similar to other messages but using the second byte to switch over the message type. prefix is DM so i guess it was called dynamic messaging ? anyway, receiving is straightforward but sending confuses me, what if the first character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an ascii map handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message not an (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks early development days. regards Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070314/c22905e6/attachment-0001.htm From narcis at luky.nl Wed Mar 14 14:00:54 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:00:54 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 Mar 2007, at 00:14, netrek-dev-request at us.netrek.org wrote: Some very interesting things were said throughout all emotions, the thing i noticed particually: > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > As long as only information that is already available is used > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > I fully agree with that. Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. Personally i like the definition above, including the statement that computing information (like targeting aids) does qualify as borg. > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > alive)? I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know where to address. regards Chris From keyos at keyos.org Wed Mar 14 14:29:30 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:29:30 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > > As I've learned from James, not all things called "borg" are borg. > > As long as only information that is already available is used > > (i.e. you have no _more_ info than other players might have), > > then it's just a matter of taste how the available info is > > presented: if the client has the info, go for it. > > I fully agree with that. > > Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word > too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems > and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if > there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. > Well, I'd say if you will ask such questions on r.g.n. you will see 10 different answers from 5 people :) The rule of thumb says that if you have the information you can provide it to the player. However there are too many exceptions to such short statement. For example my first client release was borg because I decided to display number of armies by the side of each visible planet in the galaxy. This is big no-no, because (according to veteran players) this info is available in general, but you have to point to the planet and hit 'i' in order to actually get it. This takes time in normal client and doesn't in mine, so it is borg :) Or having player that has kills highlited in the player list (or on the map/tactical) - as well nono (although I think Paradise2000 has this). The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the change provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it is borg, if not - it's ok". This one also has its problems, so you'll have to figure out with people here whether feature you add is ok or not. > > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > > alive)? > > I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know > where > to address. > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". You can create whatever borgs you want and everyone can play them on servers that don't require RSA. If you passed James/Carlos and got your key on key server - you can play anywhere. > regards > > Chris > Stas. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From karthik at karthik.com Wed Mar 14 14:36:20 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:36:20 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AB9A35E-4D32-4575-9878-5F47923C740C@karthik.com> On Mar 14, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Stas Pirogov wrote: > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to > discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". You can > create > whatever borgs you want and everyone can play them on servers that > don't require RSA. If you passed James/Carlos and got your key on > key server - you can play anywhere. To clarify, some servers may not have RSA on but do NOT allow borgs. The primary Bronco servers, pickled and continuum, fit this definition, or they would not be listed as Bronco servers. The primary reason RSA is currently disabled on pickled is due to MacTrek players who can't verify properly yet. When they are able to verify and sufficient time has passed for them to upgrade, I envision re-enabling RSA. This is less to prevent borg clients (a motivated individual can bypass RSA without too much trouble), but more to keep everyone on the same clientbase (and a clientbase that has been vetted and agreed upon not to be a borg) and allow easy identification of clients. From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:41:49 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:41:49 -0600 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not sure how accepted the statement is, but I agree with it. The way I feel on the issue is, with the gaming market being so competitive we should do what we can to help keep newbies interested in the game. That includes enabling certain features that help new players better understand the game. People don't want to have to read a technical manual to learn how to play. From what I have seen, most want to be able to download and start playing right away. The easier we can make it for people to get into the action of a game of Netrek the better chance we have of keeping them. All the features currently in place seem like reasonable tools to do this. -Joe >From: Narcis >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:00:54 +0100 >Is this a general accepted statement? i sometimes hear the B word >too, (though it is not quite accurate, MacTrek has ghostbusting problems >and the Borg collective has excellent networking :-) but wondered if >there is a general consus about what is borg and what is not. > >Personally i like the definition above, including the statement that >computing information (like targeting aids) does qualify as borg. > > > > > the netrek "board" (the people who currently run what keeps netrek > > alive)? > >I'd like to address that question to the "board" but would not know >where >to address. > >regards > >Chris > > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 14 15:51:34 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:51:34 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314205134.GA27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Stas Pirogov wrote on Wed 14.Mar'07 at 21:29:30 +0200 -= > The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the > change provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it > is borg, if not - it's ok". That's bad, because _everything_ is more useful to the cluebie than to the twink. Cluebies always have a head start. What kind of useful feature would be more helpful to a newbie than a cluebie? > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes > to discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". Well, ideally this is true, but there are those who provide the infrastructure, and they therefore have more to say than others, or at least they are to be convinced if something is supposed to change. If they don't support it, then it fails. Nobody can tell them what to do with their resources. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 14 16:31:25 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:31:25 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Wed 14.Mar'07 at 8:51:12 +1100 -= > Calm down kiddies. I am calm. :) Just verbose and curious, and trying to cut down ping-pong threads, posing detailed questions to get as detailed responses, not just usual too generic blabla when the questions are too generic, too. I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be supported/ tolerated by the community. > Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source > he started with to lock it up, He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy to brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't deserve support for this attitude. We are not playing "core- wars" here, we're trying to sustain netrek as a whole, not just personal toys of single people. D'oh, even if the code were open, he _still_ could feel better than others, it wouldn't hurt his qualities as "better" coder when everybody can see it; it's the opposite! Competition is the purpose of the game, not the code! We should struggle together, not against each other. It's a PITA for me to see resources wasted in this way. Not only for taking over existing secret ideas, but also to be able to build on top of them what doesn't exist anywhere yet. More than that, the already given short answers indicate even worse beyond simply bad attitude: his locking up causes distrust in him, because he hides the code to continue implementing "borg" features, which nobody can control anymore?! "People don't want XYZ, ok then I hide my code and still do it"? Bad logic. Or: "Others don't port, so neither will I. But not only that, I also lock my code away so nobody else can do it". Bad logic. Changes have to be discussed publicly/ openly to be supported by all in agreement. And we need those changes. Like a feature- rich server a la Paradise, because Bronco is too boring for some newbies. BTW, welcome newbie James, had a look at the archive for recent post to your request? Have tried it? Re: "borg" (-> quozl: "therefore we need features and behaviour that will enlarge the player base.") If it wasn't clear from my post before, I suggested "newbie- friendliness" by means of "info-borgs" for this very reason: to attract and keep more players. Not to change gameplay for anyone. Helping newbies _is_ helping netrek. Info-borgs don't turn tides: It's all just a matter of relations. - for the pros they give minial benefit on absolute scale. - _relative_ to other pros, however, that would be tremendous! - but relative to newbies it doesn't matter how much more the pro is better, the difference is already beyond fairness, the newbie can only win. The biggest progress is made in the beginning. Once you've reached clue status, the differences shrink again. Now, instead of denying the newbies some help because the help can be abused by cluebies, let's compensate it for the "old style" pros: let players _without_ help be rewarded more (or the other less): kill/destroyed ship or bombing, % of normal ship stats (hull, fuel ...), generally less DI -> rank (for the stats madcows). In league games all fancy stuff is off anyway, of course: it remains reserved for the pros. With that you'd have both: easy entry, and a reason not to use it later on. > Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of > Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, Yeah, but he likewise should not rub it in just to provoke anyone. That just further fuels the paranoia. > Where I have noticed that the feature was reverse engineered > from Paradise-2000, I've tried to make a note of that in the COW > commits. I don't know what has been reverse-engineered, but there are things that existed already before in plain P or TT. ;) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 17:11:14 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:11:14 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:31:25PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for > no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek > community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be > supported/ tolerated by the community. I don't know why. > > Trent has the right under the ambiguous licensing of the source > > he started with to lock it up, > > He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy to > brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't deserve > support for this attitude. I don't support Trent's attitude, but I won't fight it. I doubt he thinks of it in the way you describe. > > Bill has the right under the ambiguous licensing of > > Paradise-2000 to implement what he likes, > > Yeah, but he likewise should not rub it in just to provoke anyone. > That just further fuels the paranoia. I don't support Bill's attitude either, but I won't fight it, unless he's trying it on me. I also doubt he thinks of it like that, I expect it is just accidental. I'm not here to exert mental or social control, I'm here to contribute code, to help others to contribute code, to let server admins run something that will bring in newbies *and* provide a protected place for the cripples who refuse to accept change. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 14 17:26:11 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD In-Reply-To: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> References: <915B6775-DC9D-4BF9-A46A-5637B1567050@luky.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Narcis wrote: > the first > character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an > ascii map > handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message not an > (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks early > development days. The MDISTR flag in the group field of the CP_S_MESSAGE/CP_MESSAGE packet is what identifies the message as an RCD and not just text. From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 17:40:09 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:40:09 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314224009.GC5445@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 07:22:51PM +0200, Stas Pirogov wrote: > Latest additions to XP Mod (double buffering IIRC) made it > only playable on XP/2000 + systems. Microsoft do not backport newer > SDK functions to not supported OSes. Ah, is that all it is? The newer client is using newer features available on the operating system. The way we handle that on Linux (apart from the obvious backporting solution or borrowing the DLL) is to build a program with the newer features disabled, and ship that with a file name showing it is for the older versions of Linux. But there are these impacts: - source code has to include #ifdef's for different versions, - build scripts or Makefiles have to identify the version being built, - testing by developer needs to happen on multiple operating system versions, (think VMware Player and a happy instance of the older version), - final release has to include multiple .exe files, or a .dll specific to the operating system version. Therefore it is Bill's call, unless someone wants to step up and help Bill by working with his CVS repository of Netrek XP 2006! -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 14 18:16:42 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:16:42 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314231642.GD5445@us.netrek.org> I've a few hats, so I'll put them on one by one. 1. server source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful features, but will resist changes to the amount of information the server gives, since the network protocol is the primary information barrier to prevent allegations of cheating. If there is doubt as to whether the feature would be generally accepted, then it must be configurable for the patch to be accepted. It is up to the server owners to determine what features are enabled. Policy is set by them, not by patch acceptance. 2. client source maintainer, will take any patch that adds useful features, will take any patch that brings the client up toward the level of information provided by most other clients, but will resist changes that draw conclusions from the packet stream in a way that increases the information given to players by an order of magnitude or more. In this way, the COW client on Linux avoids becoming the tall poppy that people whinge about, yet should not be so far behind that people won't use it when they need to. Not there yet. 3. continuum server admin, will enable features that appear to be generally accepted, will push for features that make my life easier, will turn off features that my players whinge seriously about, but won't be swayed by emotional arguments or abusive messages from individuals or small groups. 4. development community benevolent dictator, will accept merges of source from previously divded efforts, so that the ideas are centralised, and communication between potential contributors increased ... that's why I want the Paradise server changes to merge into the Vanilla source, yet be a configuration setting. PARADISE=0 being the default. 5. player community member, will play on whatever server has players. I don't see myself as a significant player community member. 6. australian player community leader, will organise games on a local server, providing the necessary communication infrastructure and announcements. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From williamb at its.caltech.edu Wed Mar 14 18:44:23 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Need help troubleshooting a Windows 98 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Here goes.... > > >Netrek Classic (2MB) > I downloaded, Installed and set up the Config, when through the quick > Tutorial etc. > When I double clicked the "Netrek" symbol on my desktop it said this: > > / ! \ The NETREK.EXE file is > linked to missing export GDI32.DLL:AddFontResourceExA > [ok] > > in that exact text. > Yes xp mod 4.4.0.4 uses some new font resource adding/removal function that is not backwards compatable.. > >Netrek XP 2006 (8MB) > Installation was fine, and once finished the Netrek XP 2006 Sever List > opened auto > > The good news it that I can play it....... but the planets are just Circles > with names underneath them... > also, it just mucked up after a minute of flying around... the main screen > with all the ships and planets on cloned itself onto the list of players, > then the main one next to the galaxy map froze completely. when i moved the > "clone" up into the middle of the screen, it wasnt enlarged. the small > section of the box was the only part of it (the section was the same size as > the players list, and the players list was gone) > > last time i tried to play it, it was all just bliking and lagging. but since > then i have uninstalled and reinstalled 2 or three times lol. Ok, see the README for Win95, Win98, and WinME file in the docs directly. In brief, not all features will work on Win98, but you can turn them off. I recommend using the following: newQuit: off colorClient: 0 planetBitmap: 0 planetBitmapGalaxy: 0 Open your netrekrc file and find the corresponding entries (should be in alphabetical order). Or use the config utility and choose classic mode..I think that covers the ship and planet bitmaps. You may need to change the quit window setting manually though (newQuit to off). Bill From narcis at luky.nl Fri Mar 16 03:51:19 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 09:51:19 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 25, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C02253C-37E5-438C-93A4-0AB17BC250A5@luky.nl> > On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Trent wrote: >> the first >> character of a message would fit in that catagory (don't have an >> ascii map >> handy to see if that is possible) i would expect a CP_RCD message >> not an >> (ab)use of the CP_MESSAGE but i may know too little about netreks >> early >> development days. > > The MDISTR flag in the group field of the CP_S_MESSAGE/CP_MESSAGE > packet is > what identifies the message as an RCD and not just text. Thanks Trent, i with that statement it was easier to grep through the COW source and find out the details. regards Chris P.S. Now i know how it works, i have to find the time to implement it :) From narcis at luky.nl Fri Mar 16 04:10:54 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:10:54 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] I Locutus of Borg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24C52C52-7D93-4D5B-BEEC-D0C022902A51@luky.nl> On 14 Mar 2007, at 22:32, lots of you wrote: > The rule of thumb says that if you have the information you can > provide > it to the player. However there are too many exceptions to such short > statement. Okay, > For example my first client release was borg because I decided to > display > number of armies by the side of each visible planet in the galaxy. > This > is big no-no, because (according to veteran players) this info is > available in general, but you have to point to the planet and hit 'i' > in order to actually get it. This takes time in normal client and > doesn't > in mine, so it is borg :) Yes this was one of the things MacTrek is plagued with too. The first version could do that, the 1.1 has a similar advantage but requires more clicking, i think i will even the playing field by showing it only for 1 planet/ player at the time similiar to the info window, but not in a window. > The best definition of borg that I think I heard of is "If the change > provided gives advantage to clued player over newbie - it is borg, > if not > - it's ok". This one also has its problems, so you'll have to > figure out > with people here whether feature you add is ok or not. which would be about anything, that is different from current mainstream clients. Actually i think it is a balance, new clients do things differently, so for experienced players, MacTreks "plus" features would be outweighted by what you would find in other clients. > The board actually includes yourself as well. Everyone who comes to > discuss netrek development issues is "the board member". I know, but i;am a consensus guy :-) > The primary reason RSA is currently disabled on pickled is due to > MacTrek players who can't verify properly yet. When they are able to > verify and sufficient time has passed for them to upgrade, I envision > re-enabling RSA. Yes we have to look into that, it verifies fine on my server, but do not see other servers enabling RSA. for that. (from logfile: Joining: aqua, (1) Mon Dec 4 21:30:58 2006 Client: MacTrek. Arch: OSX-Tiger. Player: aqua. Login: aqua. at Mon Dec 4 21:31:00 2006 Joining: Blaster, (1) Mon Dec 4 21:34:40 2006 I've just been notified of a problem with 1.1.1 and Apples latest upgrade to OS X 10.4.9 it looks quite bad, the dynamic linker cannot find something in libs i did not know were used anyway. Looking into it. Keep you posted Chris From niclas at acc.umu.se Fri Mar 16 08:25:23 2007 From: niclas at acc.umu.se (Niclas Fredriksson) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:25:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Stas Pirogov wrote: > Well, I'd say if you will ask such questions on r.g.n. you will see 10 > different answers from 5 people :) That's because on this list there are primarily developers and on rgn there are primarily players. In general the client and server developers have always been people who don't play the game very much or if they do (like Trent and Bill) they care more about having their client be the most popular one than bothering about the game balance and since a borg feature has been implemented in another blessed client they feel no harm can be caused by putting that feature in their own client since it's "already out there". But today hardly anyone plays. It doesn't matter if something as stupid as, for instance, 50 UPS would "ruin the game" because there's pretty much nothing of it left. Big changes change the game in a big way, and we end up with a new game entirely (like with the 5->10 UPS change) and at this point in time pretty much nothing bad can happen. So I say, bring on the borgs. Bring on the big game altering changes. -- Niclas (Trent hates me) From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 16 14:05:17 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:05:17 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070314221114.GB5445@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070316190517.GA4063@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Thu 15.Mar'07 at 9:11:14 +1100 -= > I don't know why. Even though I responded to your mail, I've hoped for answers from Trent rather than from you about questions directed at Trent (as a continuation of the 1st mail with questions to him). Let him speak for himself. > > He has the right, but if he prefers to use the code as a toy > > to brag how much "better" he is than others, then he doesn't > > deserve support for this attitude. > > I don't support Trent's attitude, but I won't fight it. I doubt > he thinks of it in the way you describe. Well, "That's one of my features that no one has managed to copy yet." That sounds pretty much like it to me. Anyway, again I'd like to read Trent's answers. > I don't support Bill's attitude either, but I won't fight it, > unless he's trying it on me. I also doubt he thinks of it like > that, I expect it is just accidental. ... I don't know much about the history between the 2, but ... my little impressions that I have give me this feeling of intentional hostility. > I'm not here to exert mental or social control, I'm here to > contribute code, to help others to contribute code, to let server > admins run something that will bring in newbies *and* provide a > protected place for the cripples who refuse to accept change. Such cripples are not the problem, but statements like this are: "Tell that to the people who try get every feature I think of called borg." Meaning: "They would complain about borgish features, then I do my own secret stuff so they don't know about it." It's not about not changing, but distrust because of obscurity. Blessed binaries may be not relevant for security, yet they mean trust by/to the community (worthy to be supported), as indicator for a balanced game. This trust is gone for P2K. Until I hear a good reason for letting Trent have his secret way, I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the little that it may be worth. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Fri Mar 16 16:15:31 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: > I'd like to understand why people prefer to slow down progress for > no benefit _to anyone_, or what this benefit to the netrek > community is and therefore why the "lock-down" attitude should be > supported/ tolerated by the community. Here's a thought Rado, maybe the whole world doesn't revolve around you? Maybe I couldn't care less whether you want an open source client or not. Around ten years ago, I was frustrated with the near zero pace of client development. No one had released an update to the paradise client for several years. There were bugs that were unfixed. Good ideas that weren't implemented. I was unhappy with the netrek clients available to *me* and I wanted a better one. At this time, as is the case now, there were several windows only clients that were getting more attention than the clients available for Linux. I did not want to best netrek client to be windows only. And Rado, unlike some people, I do more for open source operating systems than just whine. I decided that the best netrek client would be Linux only, and I set out to create it. And, at least in my mind, I achieved that goal long ago. I released my client, even thought it was great deal of extra work to do so, so that other Linux users wouldn't have to suffer with sub-standard clients. I used to release the source for everything I wrote. Then people started putting them names on my code and pretending they wrote it. So I decided to stop releasing what I write. It pisses me off to be plagiarized and by not releasing my code (which is mine to do with as I please, you have no right to tell me what to do) I avoid that situation. I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. I do not do it to personally spite Rado S; I do not care what he thinks. If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, then that's just too bad. Maybe you should be happy with what you get and stop acting like you are entitled to more. > We should struggle together, not against each other. > I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the > little that it may be worth. If you think your spiteful, and hypocritical, action will make me want to release my source, you are quite mistaken. And quite frankly, your borg speculation is simply clueless. I document all my new features meticulously. Where do you think Bill gets all my ideas from? If there are secret borg features, what are they? Is there some conspiracy among all the people who have used the client to keep them secret from Rado S., Borg Patrol Officer? From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 17 11:14:53 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:14:53 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Fri 16.Mar'07 at 14:15:31 -0700 -= > {... irrelevant WRT to open netrek code } > > Then people started putting them names on my code and pretending > they wrote it. Did this happen with netrek? Netrek-people are not as bad as non-trekkies. If there were 1 black sheep, this doesn't mean the rest of the community will let such a thing pass. Plus, public code tracking could always prove your point. > I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. That is exactly _how_? What's the ill-effect for you? Stolen credit? What's the ill-effect of stolen credit for open source?! Where stealing this _can not happen_ in a public community. > {...} not releasing my code (which is mine to do with as I please, > you have no right to tell me what to do) I avoid that situation. You have the right to do with the code whatever you want. Make money with it, fine. Make your own game, fine. I'm not telling you what to do, just asking for your reasoning. And maybe explain that you lose more credit than you win this way. > If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've > put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, > then that's just too bad. The messenger doesn't affect the message. Code contribution is no measure for truth or justification. Have I said something untrue or unjust? Just because you might have put more code into the server, this doesn't justify anything bad that you do elsewhere. Why aren't you afraid the same way about the code you've put in the server that it could be "stolen", too? What is the difference between the 2? > Maybe you should be happy with what you get and stop acting like > you are entitled to more. No, I/we are not entitled to more, you're free to do with the code whatever you want. > I document all my new features meticulously. Where do you think > Bill gets all my ideas from? So what would _you lose more_ by releasing the code when the worst you can think of is already happening? > If there are secret borg features, what are they? Hard to tell without seeing the code. That's the point! Never heard of undocumented features? > Is there some conspiracy among all the people who have used the > client to keep them secret from Rado S., Borg Patrol Officer? Whether or not there are actually borg features doesn't matter as much as the responses you've given so far. Trust and credit comes through publicity, not secrecy. > > I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the > > little that it may be worth. > > If you think your spiteful, and hypocritical, action will make > me want to release my source, you are quite mistaken. No, don't be confused, I do _not_ want you to release your code. If you prefer to be happy with it all by yourself, so be it! Can't say anthing against it. My action just supports your desire. I hope others will "help" you, too. What I _do_ want is to officially ask the keymasters to reconsider the granting of blessed status for P2K for the there was no sane reason given yet to bless a closed source client. Or is there anything else I'm missing? Can the keymasters please shed some light? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From karthik at karthik.com Sat Mar 17 11:56:04 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:56:04 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" Message-ID: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> There have been some some arguments on both sides for what is reasonable to change, and what is not reasonable to change, in the interest of attracting new players to the game. Some feel that it's okay to make changes that might stop older players from playing, whereas I am of the school that only major changes that do that are reasonable. (For example, I feel that 50fps is a necessary evil, but I do NOT like the idea of showing damage to anyone since it's an acquired skill, and one that's fun to acquire at that.) I propose the following, based off RadoS' idea of extra information for new players: Newbies get a downgraded ship. No matter what ship type they choose, they end up in a CA. This CA will have det own disabled, and if you are > 2/3 CA phaser distance from the nearest enemy, your torps will linearly go down in speed to a minimum of 67% until you reach 4/3 of CA distance from an enemy ship, at which point they will not slow further. I think the first change will not be noticed by newbies, and the second change will help encourage them to play more aggressively, rather than the plinkage-from-afar that we see nowadays. Also important, the combination of changes will make a clued player not want to ever play the "newbie ship." As compensation for the above, these players will get to see full damage on friendly/enemy ships, will see army counts on all planets (perhaps with a "Bomb Me!" message or similar), and will have some additional form of beeplite enabled to highlight "dangerous" enemy ships. Again, not enough to make a clued player use that ship. To implement this, upon client launch a dialog stating something like "This client is in newbie mode, which will allow you to see extra information on ships and planets to help learn the game. Some advanced features will be disabled in newbie mode." should be displayed. There should be an "I am an experienced player, use default ships" checkbox that permanently disables that message and disables newbie mode, caching the value for future launches. The client will then send a packet to the server that causes that slot to be flagged as a newbie, and ANY ship selection will result in a CA modified as above. Once a player in newbie mode hits Lt. Cmdr., the client should automatically disable newbie mode as above. (Possibly a DI level between Lt. Cmdr and Commander as guest, since for guests Lt. Cmdr. seems too low and Commander seems too high.) Thoughts? I'm especially open to ideas on things other than det own that can be removed from newbies' ships without hurting their learning, but which would frustrate experienced players enough to not play with (and thus abuse the info capabilities of newbie mode.) From karthik at karthik.com Sat Mar 17 12:04:52 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:04:52 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" In-Reply-To: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> References: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> Message-ID: <8F7C6CE0-6B74-4285-BAA3-E38257AF2528@karthik.com> Oh yes. This ship could also not be allowed to carry armies, perhaps. That adds another layer of frustration for experienced players, and keeps the newbies focussed on learning how to fight and bomb initially. Perhaps the "I am an experienced" player checkbox could go away. Instead, newbie mode would only deactivate automatically with rank (new or existing), OR upon successful answering of a cluecheck question. Although, all existing players would have to do is log in once with a ranked character and there would be no more newbie mode after that, even as guest. So perhaps the cluecheck workaround isn't needed. If there's no checkbox, it gives newbies something to strive for! I think that's an important part of getting people into a game, and that's also why I'm against showing damage for enemy ships: it removes the fun-to-learn skill of crippling. (Not to mention that it kills the tactics of pretending to be crippled, pretending to be warp 1 in an SB, and also lets everyone know just HOW damaged that SB really is. Can't count how many times I've sat on the front wiggling my ship a bit while firing a torp once in a while to hold a planet with almost no hull/shields/fuel. The enemy didn't know I was crippled, obviously!) From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 12:11:31 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:11:31 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" In-Reply-To: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> References: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/07, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > > I propose the following, based off RadoS' idea of extra information > for new players: > > Newbies get a downgraded ship. No matter what ship type they choose, > they end up in a CA. This CA will have det own disabled, and if you > are > 2/3 CA phaser distance from the nearest enemy, your torps will > linearly go down in speed to a minimum of 67% until you reach 4/3 of > CA distance from an enemy ship, at which point they will not slow > further. Some good ideas. How would this newbie mode be enabled though? I've seen clue-in-hiding login with newbenice and playnetrek.org. Perhaps the login screen could have this as an extra option? Forcing them into the same login would not be good since newbies tend to want their own names. Would this be client independent? I think the best way to attract newbies is on significant client development but I know others disagree. While we're giving extra info to newbies I propose we pop up a window explaining how to send messages to the different boards and what is the enemy (how often we've seen newbies shooting at their own teammates), how to move (this is very common to see newbies just sitting there motionless firing), and how to fire weapons. These seem to be the most common newbies problems. If you don't want the message coming up in the client then perhaps have a link on the login screen (i suspect most newbies don't bother reading the motd) to a webpage explaining this all (ideally with nice screens shots). Zach From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 12:17:28 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:17:28 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" In-Reply-To: <8F7C6CE0-6B74-4285-BAA3-E38257AF2528@karthik.com> References: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> <8F7C6CE0-6B74-4285-BAA3-E38257AF2528@karthik.com> Message-ID: On 3/17/07, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > Oh yes. This ship could also not be allowed to carry armies, perhaps. > That adds another layer of frustration for experienced players, and > keeps the newbies focussed on learning how to fight and bomb initially. > > Perhaps the "I am an experienced" player checkbox could go away. > Instead, newbie mode would only deactivate automatically with rank > (new or existing), OR upon successful answering of a cluecheck > question. Although, all existing players would have to do is log in > once with a ranked character and there would be no more newbie mode > after that, even as guest. So perhaps the cluecheck workaround isn't > needed. I like this idea but how long would they not be able to bomb? Newbies seem to have a predilection for advancing in rank so they may become frustrated and leave if they see everyone else bombing and taking and they can't do so. If this is done a caveat/explanatory blurb should be given to them. > that's also why I'm against showing damage for enemy ships: it I am also strongly against this. Showing damage is a true borg feature. If 2 ships are dogfighting and both are clued it isn't that difficult to guestimate how much hull/shields/fuel the other ship has but for anyone random ship to fly by and instantly see how much damage a given ship has is truly borg. You are giving them information they'd have no other way of knowing. Zach From williamb at its.caltech.edu Sat Mar 17 18:43:58 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" In-Reply-To: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> References: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> Message-ID: > Newbies get a downgraded ship. No matter what ship type they choose, > they end up in a CA. This CA will have det own disabled, and if you > are > 2/3 CA phaser distance from the nearest enemy, your torps will > linearly go down in speed to a minimum of 67% until you reach 4/3 of > CA distance from an enemy ship, at which point they will not slow > further. > I don't like this..it means they are learning a different mechanics of how their ship works to how it will eventually work. Plus it will screw up DFing for anyone around them. > I think the first change will not be noticed by newbies, and the > second change will help encourage them to play more aggressively, > rather than the plinkage-from-afar that we see nowadays. Also > important, the combination of changes will make a clued player not > want to ever play the "newbie ship." > How about we just let CA and SC be the only 2 ships they can play until they get to goal X. Whether that be rank or something else. > As compensation for the above, these players will get to see full > damage on friendly/enemy ships, will see army counts on all planets > (perhaps with a "Bomb Me!" message or similar), and will have some > additional form of beeplite enabled to highlight "dangerous" enemy > ships. Again, not enough to make a clued player use that ship. > No way on the damage thing. You send that info to client and it will be used for borgs. Hell I'd be tempted to write a private borg client to show enemy damage, that's a huge advantage :). As for highlighting dangerous enemy ships, how do you determine that? As for army counts on all planets, if you think it's a helpful feature to newbies, then how about just give it to everyone? > To implement this, upon client launch a dialog stating something like > "This client is in newbie mode, which will allow you to see extra > information on ships and planets to help learn the game. Some > advanced features will be disabled in newbie mode." should be > displayed. There should be an "I am an experienced player, use > default ships" checkbox that permanently disables that message and > disables newbie mode, caching the value for future launches. The > client will then send a packet to the server that causes that slot to > be flagged as a newbie, and ANY ship selection will result in a CA > modified as above. > I still like the idea of rank being used towards this. To allow clues to play as guest, have a per IP database server side to recognize them as clue as long as they have a character of rank X or higher that they have played from that IP address. > Once a player in newbie mode hits Lt. Cmdr., the client should > automatically disable newbie mode as above. (Possibly a DI level > between Lt. Cmdr and Commander as guest, since for guests Lt. Cmdr. > seems too low and Commander seems too high.) > Server side. > Thoughts? I'm especially open to ideas on things other than det own > that can be removed from newbies' ships without hurting their > learning, but which would frustrate experienced players enough to not > play with (and thus abuse the info capabilities of newbie mode.) > Sending new info to the client, trusting client authors not to abuse it and give that information to anyone using the client....no I don't think that's the way to go. Bill From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Sun Mar 18 05:38:51 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <63856390-77D5-4A66-8A16-A94FB20E13B3@luky.nl> <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: > =- Trent Piepho wrote on Fri 16.Mar'07 at 14:15:31 -0700 -= > > Then people started putting them names on my code and pretending > > they wrote it. > > Did this happen with netrek? Netrek-people are not as bad as > non-trekkies. Yes, it has happened to code netrek related and code not netrek related. And as to netrek people not being as bad, Bill is possibly the most amoral person I've ever has the misfortune to encounter. > Plus, public code tracking could always prove your point. There is no question that Bill has copied many of my ideas, yet I don't see him mentioning where they came from. If you look at his web page, you'd think he came up with them all himself. If had released my code, he would have cut and pasted it and pretended he wrote it and public code tracking wouldn't do a thing to change it. Maybe if you had the experience with others taking credit for your work that I have had, you would understand. Of course, one actually has to produce work in order for someone else to take credit for it. Maybe instead of telling me what I should do, you should go do something. > > I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. > > That is exactly _how_? Maybe if you produced something, and someone else took credit for it, you would understand. > > If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've > > put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, > > then that's just too bad. > > The messenger doesn't affect the message. Maybe the messenger doesn't have the experience to know what he's talking about. > Just because you might have put more code into the server, this > doesn't justify anything bad that you do elsewhere. If I give $100 to a charity, is that a bad thing to do? Because I didn't give $200? Would it be better if I wrote a netrek client and just never told anyone about it or let anyone else use it? Just because something is as good as you would like, doesn't make it bad. > Why aren't you afraid the same way about the code you've put in > the server that it could be "stolen", too? > What is the difference between the 2? I do not think code in the netrek server has much potential to be plagiarized. And I can't run my own server. > > If there are secret borg features, what are they? > > Hard to tell without seeing the code. That's the point! > Never heard of undocumented features? If there were secret borg features, why would I release the code for them anyway? It would be easy enough to strip it out. I've even just worked on a script that does that: http://linuxtv.org/hg/v4l-dvb?cmd=changeset;node=9c24ec9fba7f836e7971f02cc27e5e2572009aaa;style=gitweb Maybe you should be worried about the person who's been banned from pickled because his idea of fun is logging in multiple times to abuse the ban command to kick people out. > > > I remove the link to his page from paradise.netrek.org, for the > > > little that it may be worth. > > > > If you think your spiteful, and hypocritical, action will make > > me want to release my source, you are quite mistaken. > > No, don't be confused, I do _not_ want you to release your code. > If you prefer to be happy with it all by yourself, so be it! > Can't say anthing against it. > My action just supports your desire. I hope others will "help" > you, too. You deleted a line you wrote, let me put it back for you. > We should struggle together, not against each other. What benefit do you hope to effect with your actions, and to whom is it directed? From quozl at us.netrek.org Sun Mar 18 16:24:23 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 08:24:23 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070318212423.GA4647@us.netrek.org> On Sun, Mar 18, 2007 at 03:38:51AM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote: > If there were secret borg features, why would I release the code for them > anyway? It would be easy enough to strip it out. I've even just worked on > a script that does that: > http://linuxtv.org/hg/v4l-dvb?cmd=changeset;node=9c24ec9fba7f836e7971f02cc27e5e2572009aaa;style=gitweb p.s. as a beneficiary of your work on v4l-dvb, I do appreciate it, thank you. You also have my blanket permission to take any feature I add to the COW on Linux source and add it to Paradise 2000. One in particular I feel it misses is multicast server discovery and the UDP metaserver mode. You can find this code in netrek.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/netrek/client/cow/parsemeta.c -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070319/e6bfd20b/attachment.pgp From regrado at web.de Mon Mar 19 06:39:48 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:39:48 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Idea for "newbie ships" In-Reply-To: References: <50624FFB-EA24-4131-A57D-96C100004EC0@karthik.com> Message-ID: <20070319113947.GB10189@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- William Balcerski wrote on Sat 17.Mar'07 at 16:43:58 -0700 -= > > This CA will have det own disabled, and if you are > 2/3 CA > > phaser distance from the nearest enemy, your torps will > > linearly go down in speed to a minimum of 67% until you reach > > 4/3 of CA distance from an enemy ship, at which point they > > will not slow further. > > > I don't like this..it means they are learning a different > mechanics of how their ship works to how it will eventually > work. Plus it will screw up DFing for anyone around them. I don't like this general limitation either. From regrado at web.de Mon Mar 19 09:00:44 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:00:44 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: References: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070319140043.GD10189@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Trent Piepho wrote on Sun 18.Mar'07 at 3:38:51 -0700 -= > Yes, it has happened to code netrek related and code not netrek related. > And as to netrek people not being as bad, Bill is possibly the > most amoral person I've ever has the misfortune to encounter. Was there any other _netrek_ incident _without_ Bill? (netrek-unrelated is irrelevant) Again: why do you focus so much on the bad guys rather than to work it out with the good guys? Isn't their credit of more value to you than the bad guys'? You still ignore the fact that even though single black sheep might do wrong, the whole of the community _knows_ about it and will assign credit appropriately, if it means so much to you. You still haven't explained what the worth of that credit is. Why is it so important to you that you'd prevent people from porting your client to other platforms? > { Obsession with what everything bad Bill has done to you } You are too obsessed with Bill. Just forget about him and return to the community. > > Plus, public code tracking could always prove your point. > > If had released my code, he would have cut and pasted it and > pretended he wrote it and public code tracking wouldn't do a > thing to change it. Again: WHO CARES? WHY? The community knows better to give _you_ the credit, and that's all that matters, or not? If the community ChangeLog says _you_ did it (if you submit your code to the netrek project), then nobody can fake this without the whole community noticing. Have you ever used public code tracking with others? > Maybe if you had the experience with others taking credit for > your work that I have had, you would understand. Of course, one > actually has to produce work in order for someone else to take > credit for it. I have had work done (not for netrek), but it was never "stolen", because it was always given out for free, shared! It never could have been stolen. That's what you fail to grasp. Why does it matter _who_ did something good when it serves the whole independent of the contributor? Are you after some kind of reward? Which one? What means credit to you? > Maybe instead of telling me what I should do, you should go do > something. Well... if you'd let me (or anyone else), we could make your client more portable, something that you complained about others while you yourself failed for it and used as excuse to lock down. Oh wait, I can't, it's locked down. - They don't do it. - I don't do it. => then nobody else should do it for me. How logical. > > > I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me. > > > > That is exactly _how_? > > Maybe if you produced something, and someone else took credit > for it, you would understand. This will probably never happen, because it doesn't mean the same to me as to you. That's why I ask you to put it in your words for me to read so I get a chance to understand your meaning of "credit". > > > If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've > > > put more open source code into the server than you have Rado, > > > then that's just too bad. > > > > The messenger doesn't affect the message. > > Maybe the messenger doesn't have the experience to know what > he's talking about. How would you know how much experience I have? Which is besides the point anyway. When I say 1+1=2, what relevance has any quality of the messenger? It's true by itself. If you want to challenge that, bring on facts, don't distract by pointing out irrelevant qualities (your superiors or somebody else's inferiors). > > Just because you might have put more code into the server, this > > doesn't justify anything bad that you do elsewhere. > > If I give $100 to a charity, is that a bad thing to do? Because > I didn't give $200? No. It's a bad thing that if you give to charity, you may steal elsewhere. Donating to the server doesn't balance what you do to the client. The amount doesn't matter anway, just the quality. > Would it be better if I wrote a netrek client and just never > told anyone about it or let anyone else use it? Irrelevant. It's only usable to a limited (small) number of people. It can't be ported to be of use to many more. It can't be extended by anyone else but you. When you die virtually, so does your code: wasted. Has happened before, that's bad. > Just because something is as good as you would like, doesn't > make it bad. Well, as you yourself admitted, there is not only "too little good" about it, but rather there is also "bad" stuff, or else you wouldn't have started it "because other people called some features borg so I could put them in without them shouting". And as pointed out before: as much "good" as there might be in one area in your client, it doesn't justify the "bad" in another. > > { difference between client + server credit } > > I do not think code in the netrek server has much potential to > be plagiarized. And I can't run my own server. What has "running a server" to do with it? You mean because there is just 1 code-base for the server? What if somebody copied over all your contributions to some other server code and claims it's his? So by artificially keeping your codebase separate you feed your own paranoia?! Why did you have to make a new project, why didn't you simply continue the Paradise client project, which _was_ more portable than yours?! > If there were secret borg features, why would I release the code > for them anyway? It would be easy enough to strip it out. I guess producing blessed binaries could be handled automatically by a keymaster on the compile farm. He'd have to get the code from you and just add the blessing, so you couldn't do that. > Maybe you should be worried about the person who's been banned > from pickled because his idea of fun is logging in multiple > times to abuse the ban command to kick people out. That's been handled already, so your point is moot. Again you try to distract from your case by pointing to other bad examples. This doesn't get you off the hook. Every case gets its own treatment. > You deleted a line you wrote, let me put it back for you. > > > We should struggle together, not against each other. > > What benefit do you hope to effect with your actions, and to > whom is it directed? a) if you release your code: more cooperation for netrek as whole, and stop the mess with Bill. b) if you don't, that people don't mistake your client as well accepted and openly available as any other client. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From narcis at luky.nl Mon Mar 19 12:55:15 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:55:15 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] multicast server discovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 Mar 2007, at 18:00, netrek-dev-request at us.netrek.org wrote: > ..... multicast server discovery and the UDP metaserver mode. > You can find this code in > > netrek.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/netrek/client/cow/parsemeta.c AAAAGGH, i just finished inventing that :-) i'll promise to be a good boy and keep track of what you all are writing :-) Chris P.s. ah well it will probably work different in Objective-C anyway :-( From mark at mark.mielke.cc Wed Mar 14 15:05:22 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:05:22 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] What is a borg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070314200522.GA5771@mark.mielke.cc> I think the word borg, in the sense of 'info-borg', is thrown around as a justification for elitism. As far as I am concerned, a truly great Netrek player will not benefit from the majority of the 'info-borg' characteristics that have been widely debated in the past. This then leads me to become convinced that the fear is that a not-so-great player may possibly compete. I think this elitism is has been a reason why Netrek fails to attract large audiences. The intimidation alone has been enough to prevent new players from ever feeling welcomed. I see nothing wrong with planets keeping track of last know information, or numbers showing up on the screen. It isn't like it changes anyways. I remember where the fuel planets and repair planets are. A "?" on top of the planet doesn't stop me. Why should a newbie be faced with such a large entrance requirement? Does it even make sense that the ship computer wouldn't remember if it was a fuel planet or not? Some things are definately borg. Computer targetting aids. Fully automated actions (shield up, auto det, tractor/repress). Then there is items that border on cheating. For example, synchronizing timer intervals with the server, and then modulating the shields such that they are only up for the server interval that a torpedo might cause damage, or alternating between accelerating and repairing. One that I speculated about, but never had time to complete, was a true borg "network" where the clients would communicate between each other about information received from the server. This would allow far more accurate approximation of the location of cloakers, and near instaneous cooperation within dog fights. Imagine four guardian-mode ships forming a wall, each alternating to det all incoming torps as a taker behind them takes the planet. Co-ordinating phasers in an area to cover maximum space while conserving fuel utilization to locate that last taker during an LPS before blasting him. These are borg things. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Wed Mar 21 19:03:59 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:03:59 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] web page stuff Message-ID: <0qejnijg9c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Can anyone identify the client depicted at http://freetrek.linuxgames.com/netrek.jpg ? The window border looks like twm, a unix display manager. But the planets in the tac aren't the usual cow or p2k circles; they have pretty bitmaps. Ditto the explosions. And what's with those grey planets with crescents? From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 21 19:17:00 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RCD..., borgs, support, community In-Reply-To: <20070319140043.GD10189@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070313115221.GB16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313202458.GI16428@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070313215112.GA5507@us.netrek.org> <20070314213125.GB27666@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070317161453.GE5834@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070319140043.GD10189@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: Rado, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I have a hundred other emails I should write to other people and hundred things more important that I should be doing. I used to be naive and think I could just share whatever I did and everything would be fine. But I learned that's not the case. There are a lot of black sheep out there who see nothing wrong with stealing from others. I guess since it's never happened to you, you just can't understand. From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 21 19:28:31 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] web page stuff In-Reply-To: <0qejnijg9c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qejnijg9c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Mar 2007, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Can anyone identify the client depicted at > http://freetrek.linuxgames.com/netrek.jpg ? TedTurner From regrado at web.de Thu Mar 22 16:51:21 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:51:21 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Just _some_ straight answers, please! Message-ID: <20070322215120.GA18324@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Moin, my mailhost refused to accept some msgs, if you had bounces, please resend personally again. I quote this from the archive, therefore the thread breaks, I'm sorry for that, but it's still the same story: Trent wrote: > Rado, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I have a hundred > other emails I should write to other people and hundred things > more important that I should be doing. {...} > I guess since it's never happened to you, you just can't understand. Well, if you just explained, then maybe I could!!! I'm neither interested in arguing, just give some damn straight and simple answers: - who else besides Bill has hurt you? - what means credit to you? - what's the benefit of credit for/ to you? - what kind of credit do you (believe to) get _now_ with locked source? - from whom? - does this credit mean more to you than from fellow trek-coders and the whole community? Now finally face this, don't be weasely about it again. If you still won't explain, then you lose any credit you might have had. To the keymaster (Carlos?): - do you still support blessing of P2K? - if so, why? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 22 19:27:24 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:27:24 +1100 Subject: [netrek-dev] Just _some_ straight answers, please! In-Reply-To: <20070322215120.GA18324@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070322215120.GA18324@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070323002723.GA5845@us.netrek.org> On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 10:51:21PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > To the keymaster (Carlos?): > - do you still support blessing of P2K? > - if so, why? Burying this at the end of a message with a subject unrelated to your question is likely to hinder the process. If you wish to open a discussion on unblessing a client, and have reasons to put forward, then begin a thread with that kind of subject line, or write to the keymaster address directly. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Mar 22 19:46:58 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:46:58 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Borg issues? List them. In-Reply-To: <20070323002723.GA5845@us.netrek.org> References: <20070322215120.GA18324@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070323002723.GA5845@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070323004658.GC3364@carlos-desktop> Quoting James Cameron : > On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 10:51:21PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > > To the keymaster (Carlos?): > > - do you still support blessing of P2K? > > - if so, why? Drat. I missed out on the conversation because I ignored it after it turned into an intellectual property rant. Was there a specific issue of borgishness brought up? > Burying this at the end of a message with a subject unrelated to your > question is likely to hinder the process. Yes, please. Unfortunately, I no longer have the free time at work I used to have, and don't have time to follow a thread that may meander into half a dozen different topics. If one is going to thread drift, change the subject line. > If you wish to open a discussion on unblessing a client, and have > reasons to put forward, then begin a thread with that kind of > subject line, or write to the keymaster address directly. Ah, I see James covered that already. But basically, I continue to accept P2K because at the beginning, he established trust, and even complied with a couple of requests to remove features. Nowadays, I see his change log, and peruse it for any historical borg hot buttons. If I don't find any, I don't remove his key. He's been using the same 3 keys. August 2000, November 1999, and September 1999 are the dates for the 3 P2K keys I have. I depend on the community to decide amongst itself to say "THIS IS BORGISH". I am not the judge of new features, as I'm lucky to play once a month nowadays. If you have a problem, post it here, or on r.g.n. and gain support for your position. On a side note, nobody sends me keys anymore. Karthik sent me a key for MacOS X in December, and the last person before that was in December 04. Oh wait, no Bill sent me something May 06. --Carlos V. From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 28 15:45:03 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:45:03 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure Message-ID: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Cameron ----- > On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 10:51:21PM +0100, Rado S wrote: > > To the keymaster (Carlos?): > > - do you still support blessing of P2K? > > - if so, why? > > Burying this at the end of a message with a subject unrelated to > your question is likely to hinder the process. Well, I've noticed myself that it was a bad idea to do so with the _long_ eMail, so I wasn't disappointed nobody noticed it there. But I thought this one was "small enough" ... anyway, ... > If you wish to open a discussion on unblessing a client, and > have reasons to put forward, then begin a thread with that kind > of subject line, or write to the keymaster address directly. From regrado at web.de Wed Mar 28 15:52:18 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:52:18 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] credit/ closed source benefits Message-ID: <20070328205217.GE17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Trent, I've cleared the thread up now and made it easy for you so that you can simply and shortly answer those questions. Time is not a factor now if you keep the answers simple and explicit. It's all up to you. Trent wrote: > Rado, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I have a hundred > other emails I should write to other people and hundred things > more important that I should be doing. {...} > I guess since it's never happened to you, you just can't understand. Well, if you just explained, then maybe I could!!! I'm neither interested in arguing, just give some damn straight and simple _explicit_, specific answers, not wishy-washy ones: - who else besides Bill has hurt you? - what means credit to you? - what's the benefit of credit for/ to you? - what kind of credit do you (believe to) get _now_ with locked source? - from whom? - does this credit mean more to you than from fellow trek-coders and the whole community? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From mark at mark.mielke.cc Wed Mar 28 18:11:23 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:11:23 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] credit/ closed source benefits In-Reply-To: <20070328205217.GE17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070328205217.GE17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070328231123.GA6841@mark.mielke.cc> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:52:18PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > To Trent: > - who else besides Bill has hurt you? > - what means credit to you? > - what's the benefit of credit for/ to you? > - what kind of credit do you (believe to) get _now_ with locked source? > - from whom? > - does this credit mean more to you than from fellow trek-coders > and the whole community? Rado: It doesn't matter. It's Trent's choice to do as he wishes, assuming he is respecting the copyright of the original authors. For example, if he has any GPL code in his source tree, he better be releasing source code with any of his binary releases. If he feels pride from providing works that some consider valuable, and feels it necessary to protect his investment by not providing source code, this is fully his right. Thankfully - not everybody has this mindset, otherwise we wouldn't have many quality products such as Linux available to us in source form. Netrek itself would never have been popular in its early years if its authors had not released it to the public. What you or I might think of Trent, or whether we agree or not with him doesn't matter. Let it go. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 28 19:19:44 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:19:44 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure In-Reply-To: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:45:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system > where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide > binaries. True. > How do you like that? Good, please set it up, let us know how you go. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From xyzzy at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 28 19:42:58 2007 From: xyzzy at speakeasy.org (Trent Piepho) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure In-Reply-To: <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, James Cameron wrote: > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:45:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system > > where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide > > binaries. > > True. I think they recently announced they were going to get rid of it :( Once apon a time I made a freebsd build of paradise-2000, but I don't think it was ever used. From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed Mar 28 20:16:44 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:16:44 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure In-Reply-To: References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070329011644.GG5511@us.netrek.org> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 05:42:58PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote: > I think they recently announced they were going to get rid of it :( Well spotted, thanks. Confirmation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compile_farm https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=665363| -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 21:30:16 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:30:16 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure In-Reply-To: References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/28/07, Trent Piepho wrote: > > I think they recently announced they were going to get rid of it :( "As of 2007-02-08, SourceForge.net Compile Farm service has been officially discontinued." http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=665365 Zach From regrado at web.de Thu Mar 29 05:28:15 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:28:15 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] credit/ closed source benefits In-Reply-To: <20070328231123.GA6841@mark.mielke.cc> References: <20070328205217.GE17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070328231123.GA6841@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070329102815.GB12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote on Wed 28.Mar'07 at 19:11:23 -0400 -= > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:52:18PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > To Trent: > > - who else besides Bill has hurt you? > > - what means credit to you? > > - what's the benefit of credit for/ to you? > > - what kind of credit do you (believe to) get _now_ with locked source? > > - from whom? > > - does this credit mean more to you than from fellow trek-coders > > and the whole community? > > It's Trent's choice to do as he wishes, {...} I'm not denying that! > If he feels pride from providing works that some consider > valuable, and feels it necessary to protect his investment by > not providing source code, this is fully his right. I'm neither denying this! > What you or I might think of Trent, or whether we agree or not > with him doesn't matter. Let it go. > > Rado: It doesn't matter. *sigh* It might not change Trent's attitude, but it will definitely change my understanding, and with that perhaps tolerance/ acceptance or even support of his when I understand him better. Until now it just makes no sense because I don't have Trent's definitions/ answers to the above. We don't have to agree just to understand each other better. I'm just curious, that's all. To Trent: What's the problem with having the above posed questions answered? Time certainly is not the issue. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Thu Mar 29 05:59:36 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:59:36 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure In-Reply-To: <20070329011644.GG5511@us.netrek.org> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329011644.GG5511@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070329105935.GC12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 11:16:44 +1000 -= > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 05:42:58PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote: > > I think they recently announced they were going to get rid of it :( > > Well spotted, thanks. > > Confirmation: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compile_farm > https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=665363| From regrado at web.de Thu Mar 29 06:16:30 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:16:30 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 10:19:44 +1000 -= > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:45:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system > > where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide > > binaries. > > True. > > > How do you like that? > > Good, please set it up, let us know how you go. Heh, the question didn't apply just to the technical compile farm aspect, but also to the source- binary separation/ new key management roles. Does your answer apply to this, too? Given that SF's compile farm is unusable for the time being, has anyone else the resources to run (or already runs) virtual platforms so that could be implemented without SF? I'm sorry for being lame to ask for somebody else to provide service rather than offering myself, but I simply don't have the resources, neither hard- nor soft- ware. I'm also no "legal" RSA- key-/ binaries manager candidate because I'm no USA/Canada citizen. Or has the export limitation been lifted and I missed it? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From keyos at keyos.org Thu Mar 29 06:46:39 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:46:39 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: Rado, I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh, but I think nobody these days cares that much about netrek. Nobody will setup anything to compile/manage/distribute netrek clients. We all (at least most of us) are grown people that at some point were crazy about the game and were willing to spend indefinite amounts of time to make the game better (each one in his own way). We aren't that crazy anymore :) I beleive that no person in this list (correct me if I'm wrong) is willing to spend time to do tasks that you're willing us to. I guess James/Carlos/Trent are people that will still have last word in regards of what's right and wrong in current netrek community. However they don't spend that much time in the netrek universe any more. It's just the life, nothing to do with that. Great open source projects wouldn't be that great if there wouldn't exist constant wave of new developers that come and take charge. Same goes here. I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm sorry if I did. This is only my opinion and as good old saying states: "When two jews argue there are three different opinions" :) Stas. On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:16:30 +0200 > From: Rado S > Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List > To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) > > =- James Quick wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 10:19:44 +1000 -= > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:45:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > > I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system > > > where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide > > > binaries. > > > > True. > > > > > How do you like that? > > > > Good, please set it up, let us know how you go. > > Heh, the question didn't apply just to the technical compile farm > aspect, but also to the source- binary separation/ new key > management roles. Does your answer apply to this, too? > > > Given that SF's compile farm is unusable for the time being, has > anyone else the resources to run (or already runs) virtual > platforms so that could be implemented without SF? > > I'm sorry for being lame to ask for somebody else to provide > service rather than offering myself, but I simply don't have > the resources, neither hard- nor soft- ware. > I'm also no "legal" RSA- key-/ binaries manager candidate because > I'm no USA/Canada citizen. > Or has the export limitation been lifted and I missed it? > > -- > ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! > EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. > You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > From regrado at web.de Thu Mar 29 08:24:24 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:24:24 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek status & future In-Reply-To: References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070329132424.GG12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Stas Pirogov wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 13:46:39 +0200 -= > Rado, I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh, but I think nobody these > days cares that much about netrek. Nobody will setup anything to > compile/manage/distribute netrek clients. I heard some people (want to) spend efforts to attract newbies (Joe, Bill, Andrew and others on #netrek or netrek-dev). And apparently they've been somewhat successful with it already without the whole community pulling at the same end. Could be some more if more people supported it. > We all (at least most of us) are grown people that at some point > were crazy about the game and were willing to spend indefinite > amounts of time to make the game better (each one in his own > way). We aren't that crazy anymore :) It doesn't take indefinite time when well distributed across many shoulders. That's where the next generation comes in, unless the old generation keeps standing in the way or pushing the brakes. ;) > I beleive that no person in this list (correct me if I'm wrong) > is willing to spend time to do tasks that you're willing us to. Won't know without asking, everyone should speak for oneself alone and not for others. Silence then indicates you're right. ;) Otherwise it might be mistaken as predominant opinion which is pointless to oppose (which is wrong because it's just 1/ the 1st opinion voiced). Guessing is contraproductive, especially when default answer is negative. You never know when someone might pick up an idea thrown in by somebody else. Not always does the inventor of an idea have to implement it himself. Some willing implementor maybe just never thought about an idea somebody else can't implement himself. > I guess James/Carlos/Trent are people that will still have last > word in regards of what's right and wrong in current netrek > community. That's something that at least Carlos stated otherwise. However, I still have no clear answer to who rules netrek and how, nor what netrek (and respectively) borgishness is. > Great open source projects wouldn't be that great if there > wouldn't exist constant wave of new developers that come and > take charge. Same goes here. I haven't seen big change in administrative positions for deciding what's netrek and what's borg, it's often the oldies who want to keep the "good old game" old. > I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm sorry if I did. Nobody should offend or be offended by any questions or opinions, it's about finding out how things are. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From sgtjiminy at hotmail.com Thu Mar 29 14:37:55 2007 From: sgtjiminy at hotmail.com (James Turner-Crowe) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:37:55 +0000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: going on about nobody caring the side is the sound of somebody about to give up all you need to do is advertise and gamers and star-trek fans will be pouring in :) >From: Stas Pirogov >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: Netrek Development Mailing List >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without >SF) >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:46:39 +0200 (IST) > >Rado, I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh, but I think nobody >these days cares that much about netrek. Nobody >will setup anything to compile/manage/distribute netrek >clients. > >We all (at least most of us) are grown people that at >some point were crazy about the game and were willing >to spend indefinite amounts of time to make the game >better (each one in his own way). We aren't that crazy >anymore :) > >I beleive that no person in this list (correct me if I'm wrong) >is willing to spend time to do tasks that you're willing us to. > >I guess James/Carlos/Trent are people that will still have >last word in regards of what's right and wrong in current >netrek community. However they don't spend that much time >in the netrek universe any more. It's just the life, nothing >to do with that. > >Great open source projects wouldn't be that great if there >wouldn't exist constant wave of new developers that come >and take charge. Same goes here. > >I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm sorry if I did. >This is only my opinion and as good old saying states: >"When two jews argue there are three different opinions" :) > >Stas. > >On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, Rado S wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 13:16:30 +0200 > > From: Rado S > > Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List > > To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without >SF) > > > > =- James Quick wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 10:19:44 +1000 -= > > > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:45:03PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > > > I've heard SF has a compile farm, which I believed to be a system > > > > where one could compile on (almost) all platforms to provide > > > > binaries. > > > > > > True. > > > > > > > How do you like that? > > > > > > Good, please set it up, let us know how you go. > > > > Heh, the question didn't apply just to the technical compile farm > > aspect, but also to the source- binary separation/ new key > > management roles. Does your answer apply to this, too? > > > > > > Given that SF's compile farm is unusable for the time being, has > > anyone else the resources to run (or already runs) virtual > > platforms so that could be implemented without SF? > > > > I'm sorry for being lame to ask for somebody else to provide > > service rather than offering myself, but I simply don't have > > the resources, neither hard- nor soft- ware. > > I'm also no "legal" RSA- key-/ binaries manager candidate because > > I'm no USA/Canada citizen. > > Or has the export limitation been lifted and I missed it? > > > > -- > > ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! > > EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. > > You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netrek-dev mailing list > > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > > >_______________________________________________ >netrek-dev mailing list >netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ From keyos at keyos.org Thu Mar 29 15:14:04 2007 From: keyos at keyos.org (Stas Pirogov) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:14:04 +0200 (IST) Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Mar 2007, James Turner-Crowe wrote: > Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:37:55 +0000 > From: James Turner-Crowe > Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List > To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) > > going on about nobody caring the side is the sound of somebody about to give > up > about to give up ? Why about to ? Already there. > all you need to do is advertise and gamers and star-trek fans will be pouring > in :) > Maybe you ment "All I need to do ...." ? Why there's always somebody else that should do ? [snip] Stas. From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Thu Mar 29 16:58:11 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:58:11 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wish it were that easy James. I have experimented with so many different forms of advertising in the past 3 years I have lost count. Some ads are successful, some aren't. I have only seen a few that have had new players pouring in and those are usually very expensive. Most others result in a slow trickle. Just too many games to compete with. Not to say the advertising isn't helping, it is. I am happy with seeing t-mode everyday and watching the trickle of new players coming in. Progress is slow, but it is still progress. I am seeing new players every week. Not trying to step on anyone's toes here, but I still care about Netrek, I am still crazy and don't plan on giving up on trying to draw in new players anytime soon. Based on all the activity I have seen on #netrek and in the development community I believe there are a lot of people out there that feel this way. -Joe >From: "James Turner-Crowe" >Reply-To: Netrek Development Mailing List >To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org >Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without >SF) >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:37:55 +0000 > >all you need to do is advertise and gamers and star-trek fans will be >pouring in :) _________________________________________________________________ 5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free quotes - *Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5d&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=910 From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 29 17:38:16 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:38:16 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 01:16:30PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Heh, the question didn't apply just to the technical compile farm > aspect, but also to the source- binary separation/ new key > management roles. Does your answer apply to this, too? Sure. It doesn't worry me either way. Whatever works will be used. > Given that SF's compile farm is unusable for the time being, has > anyone else the resources to run (or already runs) virtual > platforms so that could be implemented without SF? Not me, I've no license to run Microsoft Windows, and plan to keep it that way. > I'm also no "legal" RSA- key-/ binaries manager candidate because > I'm no USA/Canada citizen. > Or has the export limitation been lifted and I missed it? I don't know anything about any such limitation on keys, I'm not a US citizen, I'm an Australian citizen, and we aren't a vassal state. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From mark at mark.mielke.cc Thu Mar 29 20:03:50 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:03:50 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070330010350.GA24404@mark.mielke.cc> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 08:38:16AM +1000, James Cameron wrote: > > I'm also no "legal" RSA- key-/ binaries manager candidate because > > I'm no USA/Canada citizen. > > Or has the export limitation been lifted and I missed it? > I don't know anything about any such limitation on keys, I'm not a US > citizen, I'm an Australian citizen, and we aren't a vassal state. Software exported from the United States not already covered by an exemption is limited to 1024-bit assymmetric or 128-bit symmetric for most countries. RSA is assymmetric. You'll note that Java 5, which is legal for export from the US, comes with JSSE which has 1024-bit RSA built in. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 20:55:42 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:55:42 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/29/07, Stas Pirogov wrote: > > "When two jews argue there are three different opinions" :) Or "When two netrek old timers argue there are 20 different opinions." :-) Zach From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 22:31:09 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:31:09 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] FYI: darcs tips Message-ID: Found some good darcs tips here: http://wiki.darcs.net/index.html/DeveloperTips Is it ok if I add a link to this site in the Netrek Development section of the Netrek wiki? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu Mar 29 23:00:59 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:00:59 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] FYI: darcs tips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070330040059.GK5823@us.netrek.org> On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:31:09PM -0400, Zach wrote: > Is it ok if I add a link to this site in the Netrek Development > section of the Netrek wiki? It's a wiki, just do it. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 23:55:09 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:55:09 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] FYI: darcs tips In-Reply-To: <20070330040059.GK5823@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330040059.GK5823@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/30/07, James Cameron wrote: > > It's a wiki, just do it. Done. Zach From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 30 09:21:16 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:21:16 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070330142116.GB9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 8:38:16 +1000 -= > > Given that SF's compile farm is unusable for the time being, > > has anyone else the resources to run (or already runs) virtual > > platforms so that could be implemented without SF? > > Not me, I've no license to run Microsoft Windows, and plan to > keep it that way. Good. :) But, (being a Paradiser without an existing windows client anyway ;) I was more looking for all other *x-like OS'es. Like AIX, Solaris, *bsd, *linux, HP-ux, ... and CPUs *86, sparc, powerPC, ... (making many combinations) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 30 09:29:14 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:29:14 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070330010350.GA24404@mark.mielke.cc> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> <20070330010350.GA24404@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070330142913.GC9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 21:03:50 -0400 -= > Software exported from the United States not already covered by > an exemption is limited to 1024-bit assymmetric or 128-bit > symmetric for most countries. RSA is assymmetric. You'll note > that Java 5, which is legal for export from the US, comes with > JSSE which has 1024-bit RSA built in. Is this new? Several years ago I read export limitations prohibited "overseas" use of USA crypto technology, that's why there were no Euro key-holders allowed back then (AFAIK). Was that a hoax all the time? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From narcis at luky.nl Fri Mar 30 09:27:18 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:27:18 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> Hi, I noticed continium has RSA re-enabled, but not with MacTrek keys. I've posted the keys here and sent personal messages to Carlos and Karthik regarding this matter, but have not yet received a reply. Maybe i ended up in their spam folders :-) I Currently use two keys, on my (linux) server to which the clients authenticate fine: # # Temp development keys # MacTrek_Key:ct=MacTrek:cr=Chris:\ :cd=November 2006:ar=OSX-Tiger:\ :cm=No-Comment:\ :gk=359b0e6aee1a586b193b01cc8c7ddac88ba569fc63bc79ffdeced44771b228b3 :\ :pk=efb89fa2e04e4105b4727825a8f32dfdff3034dcc25cbcd5929b5d02b879995f : # key.mactrek-1.2.0.macosx:ct=MacTrek 1.2.0:cr=info at luky.nl:\ :cd=March 2007:ar=Mac OS X (x86/PPC Universal):\ :cm=http://sourceforge.net/projects/mactrek:\ :gk=73b4d3258fcbdce83caabd297c771e5d8ce342e838673a6c0ae942c95b145c2e :\ :pk=ef6dd3afb529f1e2ce3e5b367cbb859a08b34ab4119216d7fe8dd5624f010201 : The first one is used for MacTrek 1.1.x releases and will eventually die out. Karthik had some reservations about that release since some of the features may or may not be qualified as borg it depends on your definition. (showing army counts on galactic, not targeting aids etc) It is my belief that the 1.1.x branch has soo many drawbacks and other problems that the little benefit this has will not lead to an advantage. There was a bug which prevents RSA from working properly but a patch is released (1.1.2). ( Karthik discovered the bug, will add him to credits unless i forget it :-) To meet Karthik and the more general opinion on borgs some changes were made to fit to the general consensus. This is the 1.2.x version. This version has many many more enhancements and is generally much more stable. It is scheduled for release soon and will probably replace the 1.1.x versions in the field within 3-6 months. (i saw that with 1.0.0 -> 1.1.0) I would like very much to see these keys added to the general keylist so they end up in the mainstream servers. Currently most have RSA disabled in favour of MacTrek clients but i did see some borgs appear too. Full code available on: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mactrek SVN holds the trunk code for 1.2.0 release. Best regards Chris Lukassen From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 30 10:01:01 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:01:01 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies Message-ID: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> ----- Forwarded message from James Turner-Crowe ----- > going on about nobody caring the side is the sound of somebody > about to give up > > all you need to do is advertise and gamers and star-trek fans > will be pouring in :) But this alone doesn't help: we need to keep them. All the efforts are wasted if people hop in just once to leave quickly again. We need an environment where people like to stay. James, I guess I missed your answer: have you tried Paradise (setup local server and try all features)? When you've done so: You think newbs will like a feature enriched Paradise game more than Bronco for starters to get hooked up (and later maybe learn about Bronco)? ----- Forwarded message from Stas Pirogov ----- > about to give up ? Why about to ? Already there. Well, then don't speak for all, because not all have given up. > > all you need to do is advertise and gamers and star-trek fans > > will be pouring in :) > > Maybe you ment "All I need to do ...." ? Why there's always > somebody else that should do ? That's indeed a major problem. There are things _everybody_ can do. But then there are also things that not so many can do. (I mean both in PR and support) Once the wiki is setup, we might create a section for PR plans, tasks and people doing it, so that we have a better overview about chances for success or what wholes have to be patched. ----- Forwarded message from Joe Evango ----- > I have experimented with so many different forms of advertising > in the past 3 years I have lost count. Some ads are successful, > some aren't. I have only seen a few that have had new players > pouring in and those are usually very expensive. Most others > result in a slow trickle. I guess advertizing is useless before the landing zone is well prepared: places to play with real in-game activity, places to learn live and by reading, diversity of those place for different tastes of learning and playing, responsible teachers and protectors (against lamer abuse). > Just too many games to compete with. Right. Since the game mechanic alone doesn't beat them, there must be other areas to surpass them, like the above listed support. A game doesn't see itself anymore by the code alone, especially not one such complex as netrek. And then we need patience until enough mass has gathered to attract others just by gravity (as it was in the past, just now the mass must be greater ;). > Not trying to step on anyone's toes here, Stop that, maybe we need some toe stepping to make people move. ;) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From mark at mark.mielke.cc Fri Mar 30 11:38:35 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:38:35 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Blessed binaries release procedure (CF without SF) In-Reply-To: <20070330142913.GC9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070328204503.GD17444@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329001944.GF5511@us.netrek.org> <20070329111630.GD12297@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070329223816.GA5823@us.netrek.org> <20070330010350.GA24404@mark.mielke.cc> <20070330142913.GC9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070330163834.GA951@mark.mielke.cc> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 04:29:14PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > =- mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote on Thu 29.Mar'07 at 21:03:50 -0400 -= > > Software exported from the United States not already covered by > > an exemption is limited to 1024-bit assymmetric or 128-bit > > symmetric for most countries. RSA is assymmetric. You'll note > > that Java 5, which is legal for export from the US, comes with > > JSSE which has 1024-bit RSA built in. > Is this new? Relatively new, yes. Google for it. For some reason the year 2003 is significant to me. > Several years ago I read export limitations prohibited "overseas" > use of USA crypto technology, that's why there were no Euro > key-holders allowed back then (AFAIK). > Was that a hoax all the time? Not a hoax, although I doubt the word "overseas" was part of the official description. Export of strong cryptography was prohibited along with the exports of weapons and such. It is completely impractical for them to prevent encryption from being used in software sold from the United States, though, therefore they relaxed the limits. I assume the 1024-bit assymmetric or 128-bit symmetric is based upon the most commonly required and used key strengths that the US think they can crack in their top secret NSA underground lair in under some time period. The RSA patent expired around 2003 (would have to look it up again to see the exact date). RSA labs made a guesture of good will by allowing people to use it shortly in advance of the official patent expiration date. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 30 11:41:57 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:41:57 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: >From: Rado S > >I guess advertizing is useless before the landing zone is well >prepared: places to play with real in-game activity, places to learn >live and by reading, diversity of those place for different tastes >of learning and playing, responsible teachers and protectors >(against lamer abuse). > I wouldn't say it is useless, but it is definitely not as effective as it could be if there were a more welcoming environment on our pickup servers. I just completed a banner ad campaign this past month that seemed to draw in a decent amount of traffic but cost $50/month so I had to kill it after 1 month. One of the best services I have ever used was the premier listing package on download.com but that costs $100/month so I had to downgrade to the basic listing. I am still running banner advertising on gamesites200.com which has received 60 clicks this past month and also have two pay-per-click keyword campaigns running, one being on Google. I have focused my efforts primarily on the Windows clients but still see 40-60 click per month on the MacTrek and Paradise client links I have on my site. While things have gotten better in regards to helping new players get into the game, I think we have a long way to go. Seems like we drive away more people then we keep and that is a problem. Not sure if this is due to a lack of interest in the game, the attitudes they run into on pickup servers, or both. I still see people trying to eject and trash talk on new players due to impatience and not many people willing to speak out against the people doing it. Sometimes the abuse is due to mistaken identity, not realizing the player is new, sometimes not. It isn't a huge part of the community that does this, but the people that do seem to have an incredible amount of free time to play so the impact they have on Netrek is extremely negative. First impressions are lasting impressions. If someones first experience with Netrek is an eject message and being called a retard I don't think they will be staying around. I have been told I am too sensitive to this issue, and maybe I am, but the current attitude of many in the community seems to be more focused on keeping things the way the are and NOT on keeping new players. "Trash talking has always been a part of Netrek". This mindset needs to change. -Joe _________________________________________________________________ 5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free quotes - *Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5d&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=910 From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Fri Mar 30 12:29:27 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:29:27 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:01:01 +0200") References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: > Once the wiki is setup, we might create a section for PR plans, > tasks and people doing it, so that we have a better overview about > chances for success or what wholes have to be patched. that can be done on the existing dev wiki. From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 30 12:35:19 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:35:19 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070330173518.GA10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Joe Evango wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 11:41:57 -0500 -= > I wouldn't say it is useless, but it is definitely not as > effective as it could be if there were a more welcoming > environment on our pickup servers. Yah, sorry, "useless" was wrong here, "ineffective/ inefficient" is the right one (what's the difference between the 2 words?). > { Joe spends private money } Wow, but ... a pity you did that on your own rather than in a well prepared campaign strike on _all_ fronts (www resurrection and the other stuff mentioned). > I have focused my efforts primarily on the Windows clients but > still see 40-60 click per month on the MacTrek and Paradise > client links I have on my site. Uh, where? :) (only Paradise reference is how to configure MacTrek) (I didn't know MacTrek was based on Paradise ... does it work fully with Paradise servers, too?) > Seems like we drive away more people then we keep and that is a > problem. Exactly my point. > Not sure if this is due to a lack of interest in the game, the > attitudes they run into on pickup servers, or both. Both. When you are getting into a complex/ difficult game, it doesn't help if people are contra-productive and the learning material support is (too) far away. > It isn't a huge part of the community that does this, but the > people that do seem to have an incredible amount of free time to > play so the impact they have on Netrek is extremely negative. ... because nobody stops them. (dreams about Paradise again with royalities Q, Praetor, ... to help admin a server in-game) > If someones first experience with Netrek is an eject message and > being called a retard I don't think they will be staying around. *nod* > I have been told I am too sensitive to this issue, and maybe I > am, {...} No, you are not. Those who want to play it down just don't want to be required to take action personally (change hurts). > "Trash talking has always been a part of Netrek". This mindset > needs to change. It was OK in the "good old times", because back then people had not many alternatives to leave netrek. Today it's different. At least the attitude must change. And if the game itself needs to change, then it should likewise in favour of the new player rather the pleasing the oldies who rarely play at all anymore. Game-balance almost "perfectly" developed after xy years? So what? A new game will develop a new balance again. It need not be the same as before, since the times and players aren't the same either. If incidently some elite of a soon-to-be mass of player base rediscovers the "good old qualities", so be it. But putting some arbitrary ideal at the beginning to just filter elite by old standards won't produce as much a player _base_ as we need to get a critical mass. Once we have this, we can raise our standards again. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Fri Mar 30 12:40:22 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:40:22 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] 1 or 2 wikis, what belongs where? In-Reply-To: <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 13:29:27 -0400 -= > Rado S writes: > > > Once the wiki is setup, we might create a section for PR plans, > > tasks and people doing it, so that we have a better overview about > > chances for success or what wholes have to be patched. > > that can be done on the existing dev wiki. Technically it can, but since there will be 2 wikis, it's unclear where it belongs (or generally what will belong where). A resource dedicated to "dev" (wiki, mailing list, whatever) sounds dedicated to just code development. Otherwise, if _everything_ can/ should be put on the "dev" resource, why then have any other? Why not turn the "dev" into the main one? -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 30 14:33:32 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:33:32 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070330173518.GA10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: >From: Rado S > >Wow, but ... a pity you did that on your own rather than in a well >prepared campaign strike on _all_ fronts (www resurrection and the >other stuff mentioned). > Have been doing this for Netrek for over 3 years and the results have been pretty successful. Online marketing and SEO are things I have experience with outside of the Netrek community so I have been using my experience to help out. I work very hard in preparing and launching advertising campaigns, the wording and graphics are all thought out and adjusted when needed. When I started I didn't have much to work with. Netrek.org was not in any state to help draw in new players so I had to create and use playnetrek.org. Over the years I have asked for help in promoting the game many times(creating banners, graphical work, etc). Aside from the occasional donation not many people seem interested in helping. People involved in Netrek development understandably have their hands full with very little time to spare. Others that seem to have the time to spare are more interested in playing. > >Uh, where? :) (only Paradise reference is how to configure MacTrek) >(I didn't know MacTrek was based on Paradise ... does it work fully >with Paradise servers, too?) > Two separate links for the two different client pages on the playnetrek.org homepage. > >need to get a critical mass. Once we have this, we can raise our >standards again. > Agreed -Joe _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07 From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Fri Mar 30 16:12:13 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:12:13 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Promotional ideas for Netrek? Message-ID: >From: Rado S >Wow, but ... a pity you did that on your own rather than in a well >prepared campaign strike on _all_ fronts (www resurrection and the >other stuff mentioned). I am curious...When you say a well prepared campaign strike on all fronts, what ideas do you have? I am open to discuss promotional ideas. -Joe _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Fri Mar 30 16:41:58 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:41:58 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] 1 or 2 wikis, what belongs where? In-Reply-To: <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:40:22 +0200") References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qtzw2fly1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Rado S writes: > Technically it can, but since there will be 2 wikis, it's unclear > where it belongs (or generally what will belong where). > > A resource dedicated to "dev" (wiki, mailing list, whatever) > sounds dedicated to just code development. > Otherwise, if _everything_ can/ should be put on the "dev" resource, > why then have any other? Why not turn the "dev" into the main one? Don't hold your breath waiting for a wiki. Once the mediawiki does materialize, it is conceivable that we could migrate the dev content there. I'd consider marketing discussions to be in the same category as code dev and server maintainance; backend stuff that could do just fine on the dev wiki. Unlike the stuff that potential players see, the dev wiki does not have to look pretty, and it is available now. Ineffective would mean not getting the job done. Inefficient would allow for the possbibility of getting the job done, just not in the way that makes best use of resources. Trying to remove a tree stump from your lawn by shooting rubber bands at it would be ineffective. Using either a spoon or a canon to remove a tree stump would probably be inefficient. From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Fri Mar 30 17:01:08 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:01:08 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts In-Reply-To: (Joe Evango's message of "Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:12:13 -0500") References: Message-ID: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "Joe Evango" writes: > I am curious...When you say a well prepared campaign strike on all fronts, > what ideas do you have? I am open to discuss promotional ideas. My feeling is that we've got a few pre-req's to be concerned with: (1) good website (2) mac client at the state where we feel it's ready for prime time. Mostly I think it already is, but it seems like 1.2 will be ready soon, which is probably worth waiting for, although it may well be done before other stuff is in place. Besides war declarations and only having a single message window (which actually may be a good idea for newbies) I don't know of anything key missing, now that RSA seems sorted out. (3) game infrastructure. Karthik has been tossing out ideas for game mods to help newbies. We should maybe hash these out some. (4) linux client in the major distros. I'm mainly familiar with Debian; for them, we'd need open source, which means an up to date COW build. Figuring out what other linux distros are possible to package and dist for also a good idea; I have no idea how distribution works for ubuntu or fedora, FreeBSD and NetBSD might be worthwhile if there's a way to cheaply make those users aware of our existence. Then we figure out a marketing plan. I'll send a second message with thoughts on that, so that hopefully the tech discussion can happen in this thread, and the marketing discussion seperately. --akb From netrek at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 18:28:11 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:28:11 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Saving netrek Message-ID: On 3/30/07, Rado S wrote: > > You think newbs will like a feature enriched Paradise game more > than Bronco for starters to get hooked up (and later maybe learn > about Bronco)? That is how I got into netrek. One group of my friends was playing paradise so I started going to the the computer clusters to play with my friends and eventually I after a few weeks of paradise I noticed sometimes my friends played bronco so I asked them what it was and the rest is history. Having knowledgeable players in person to give you a model XTREKRC file, to explain the keymap and buttonmap, to explain how macros work and how to make them, how RCD works, to yell at you when you are doing something dumb, and just to watch others play in person even if you are not playing (I observed many CMU clue playoff games this way which they usually won heh) is extremely helpful and is probably the ideal way to learn. Most new players will not have a chance for that learning (and also that is the most fun way to play netrek in my opinion) which is sad so we must accept this and develop the best way to train them remotely. > Once the wiki is setup, we might create a section for PR plans, > tasks and people doing it, so that we have a better overview about > chances for success or what wholes have to be patched. Dave Ahn cryptically said last week that he has decided on what wiki the Netrek website will use and it will not be MoinMoin, but he didn't say what he decided will be used so we must just wait and see :-) > I guess advertizing is useless before the landing zone is well > prepared: places to play with real in-game activity, places to learn Exactly and this happened about 5-6 years ago when a player posted to slashdot about netrek just at the same time that Karthik and then some others were working on a new plan (forget the specifics) to attract newbies, so while the player probably had good intentions their preemption did not do much to attract and retain new players. According to Joe a lot of new players have tried netrek in the past 6-12 months and I have noticed this myself anecdotally, but obviously we are not retaining enough of them. So this is the question we must focus on. I think we should approach this from two tracts: the server and client efforts. On the server side I think a paradise server and even a fun chaos server will help. and it would be good if they had something on the motd or login screen that made it clear that the purest form of netrek is bronco and once players learn the basics they are encouraged to play on the bronco servers. In the past having a good newbie server with bots also seemed to help. So if someone could run one again that would be good, the code is already done for that. There are also some tricks we could do with the metaserver and client to "strongly encourage" users to play on bronco servers if decline of bronco t mode becomes an issue again in light of new non-bronco servers ;-) On the client side many have talked about this in the past many times including myself but I think for the sake of the discussion it is worth repeating: must focus on better graphics that will make the tweens, teens and college students say "Wow this looks cool!" and very good 3D sound comparable to what they get in other games, this is what their expectations are and while we all realize the real strength of netrek is in its' rich strategic and team gameplay and coordination of group efforts the typical newbie will not yet appreciate this so we must put a very nice worm on the hook to lure in the fishes :) OpenGL graphics and SDL sound seem to be the way to go since their are toolkits/APIs for these which are multi-platform. Some have suggested a single client codebase and I'm not sure what the relative merits/weaknesses of that are right now but it may be something to consider. We could still have individuals responsible for different flavors of the client (something like skins) and instead of having BRMH client, COW client, XP 2006, XP Mod, MacTrek we could have Netrek Client + BRMH theme/skin, Netrek Client + Eric's mod. The newbie would be able to ideally easily switch and try different themes regardless of what platform/arch they are using. Another idea I had is to allow players to create mods (the whole borg issue would need to be considered) so that they could easily change certain things like ship types, sounds, GUI look, etc.. Modding is very popular in many games right now. I also feel whatever we do it is imperative we design a more intuitive help system and configuration system comparable to what the typical user will be used to from most major games (there are about 3 or 4 basic designs I've noticed with minor variations). One part of successful marketing it's finding out the end users/customer's expectations and meeting them. Just some things to think about. > live and by reading, diversity of those place for different tastes > of learning and playing, responsible teachers and protectors > (against lamer abuse). Without very active server goods with tons of time to police the server enforcement of this will be very problematic. The days of the server god who also actively plays (as in 4+ hours each day) and has lots of time to deal with problem players are likely over. There is the whole censorship issue to consider also. I daresay most if not all the active server gods have a more liberal view on this and prefer to let people say what they want even if it is offensive, racist, bigoted, hateful etc. A certain degree of verbal harassment should be expected tolerated by players seems to be the case. We can debate this, and I think sometimes there are some players who truly are there (often they are not players but just hangout on obs slots) just to try to humiliate, viciously personally attack other players and no other major game tolerates this. That may be since they are commercial games usually they're wary of potential lawsuits so their policy is enforced to mitigate this liability but in playing some popular free games I've also noticed a much less liberal view of what constitutes acceptable speech than we see in netrek. And I am not talking about the historic type of trash talking and joking which has always been a part of the game. Thankfully most players are not that disturbed or malevolent but the few who are seem highly motivated and will resort to changing ISPs, proxies, etc. to try and circumvent any player ban. Any real enforcement on this issue ultimately comes back to security and the reality of what can be enforced. There is no perfect solution I recognize however I wonder if we could be doing more security wise. Perhaps this could be discussed. > Right. Since the game mechanic alone doesn't beat them, there must > be other areas to surpass them, like the above listed support. > A game doesn't see itself anymore by the code alone, especially > not one such complex as netrek. Word of mouth advertising also helps. I wonder how many regular players tell their family, friends, coworkers about it. Or if you have a blog or website mention netrek and provide helpful links. This may seem trivial but it can have a very good cumulative effect if everyone is doing it! > And then we need patience until enough mass has gathered to > attract others just by gravity (as it was in the past, just now > the mass must be greater ;). Right and once we get critical mass we can get a healthy clue scene going again. As I've said in the past there is a symbiotic relationship between the two. A healthy pickup scene will fuel a healthy clue scene and vice versa. Clued netrek is the most intense, exciting and educational and once players advance to that level many will be "hooked" and be lifetime players heh. In recent years it is no coincidence that as the clue scene suddenly dropped off we saw a massive correlated drop off in pickup and many regular long time clued players decided to retire for good, and others who used to regularly play pickup now only pop in once a month or every few months. I don't want to get into a chicken or egg mode but you could also argue that the clued players lost interest because the quality of pickup had deteriorated so much (and I personally saw players express this view numerous times) and there were so few clue playing regular pickup. There decision to retire then exacerbated the problem. Since netrek has a steeper learning curve than most popular games we must recognize it will take years before a player advances from a newbie to semi-clue to clue to high clue (if they ever get that far) and I think we'd all agree that having clued players around to teach the newbies and demonstrate clued play and to test and push them is essential. So we need to also be focused on retaining clue and even luring back clue that have retired or got tired of netrek. For some their family and professional and social commitments/priorities make regular netrek prohibitive. I know some who would really like to play but have said they just can't find the time to do it. But as the old saying goes if something is really important to you then you'll make time for it. And I think the majority of clue who've stopped playing have done so for the other reasons I mentioned so there is at least a glimmer of hope of bringing them back :-) Zach From netrek at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 18:35:32 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:35:32 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 3/30/07, Joe Evango wrote: > > I wouldn't say it is useless, but it is definitely not as effective as it > could be if there were a more welcoming environment on our pickup servers. > I just completed a banner ad campaign this past month that seemed to draw in > a decent amount of traffic but cost $50/month so I had to kill it after 1 > month. One of the best services I have ever used was the premier listing > package on download.com but that costs $100/month so I had to downgrade to > the basic listing. I am still running banner advertising on Yikes that is expensive. Maybe put a Paypal donate button on your site so other trekers with the money can donate towards a good cause? :) > gamesites200.com which has received 60 clicks this past month and also have > two pay-per-click keyword campaigns running, one being on Google. I have > focused my efforts primarily on the Windows clients but still see 40-60 > click per month on the MacTrek and Paradise client links I have on my site. Cool. In the past 2 months I have seen a LOT of newbies using bill's XP 2006 client (especially v1.2). I noticed also that many of them were from Europe. I think having a European pickup server would help the Euro scene. In the past there was almost always at least 1 Euro server up. > I still see people trying to eject and trash talk on new players > due to impatience and not many people willing to speak out against the > people doing it. Sometimes the abuse is due to mistaken identity, not > realizing the player is new, sometimes not. It isn't a huge part of the > community that does this, but the people that do seem to have an incredible > amount of free time to play so the impact they have on Netrek is extremely > negative. First impressions are lasting impressions. I think there is only a handful of rather disturbed individuals who legitimately harass others and more stern administrative action should probably be taken against them, but for this to be successful to any degree you need 1) very proactive server gods who can respond to an issue fairly quickly 2) an improved security architecture on authentication side and/or a better ban mechanism on the network level. Zach From joe at playnetrek.org Fri Mar 30 19:32:22 2007 From: joe at playnetrek.org (Joe Evango) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 17:32:22 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zach" Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:35 PM > > Yikes that is expensive. Maybe put a Paypal donate button on your site > so other trekers with the money can donate towards a good cause? :) Have had a Make a Donation link up since January. I posted about it on rgn. > > Cool. In the past 2 months I have seen a LOT of newbies using bill's > XP 2006 client (especially v1.2). I noticed also that many of them > were from Europe. > I think having a European pickup server would help the Euro scene. In > the past there was almost always at least 1 Euro server up. > I have been seeing t-mode games between 9-11am pacific with people from all over the world playing with XP 2006. Games seem to last an hour or two. A Euro server would probably get some traffic, might help keep games going a little longer if it provided better ping times. -Joe From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 00:35:25 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 01:35:25 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> Message-ID: Hi Chris, That's great. I'm curious as to precisely how you determined a given player was using a borg in your judgement? Does anyone know of any borg bot code I could see? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 05:53:25 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:53:25 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070331105325.GB5776@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 04:27:18PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > I noticed continium has RSA re-enabled, [...] Not so. Configuration file etc/sysdef last change was on 14th March. How are you determining that continuum has RSA enabled? > but not with MacTrek keys. I'm happy to add these keys to continuum if someone can tell me how. I've not made the time to understand how to have locally accepted keys in addition to the metaserver supplied keylist. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 05:56:57 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:56:57 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] 1 or 2 wikis, what belongs where? In-Reply-To: <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070331105657.GC5776@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 07:40:22PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Technically it can, but since there will be 2 wikis, it's unclear > where it belongs (or generally what will belong where). Never wait for a wiki when one already works. You can always move the content later. If the content is that valuable to you, then you will have a backup. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 06:01:54 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:01:54 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts In-Reply-To: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070331110154.GD5776@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 06:01:08PM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I'll send a second message with thoughts on that, > so that hopefully the tech discussion can happen > in this thread, and the marketing discussion > seperately. You have my full support to use this mailing list for both technical and marketing discussion. Marketing is a psycho-social technical task, and I'm glad we have some people who know how to do it. I suck at it. Please keep the technical ideas coming, and keep the developers accountable. Logging the technical items in one of the trackers might be useful. The trac or wiki instance now requires accounts to be created manually ... after it got link spam. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 06:09:17 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:09:17 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 11:41:57AM -0500, Joe Evango wrote: > I wouldn't say it is useless, but it is definitely not as effective as it > could be if there were a more welcoming environment on our pickup servers. > I just completed a banner ad campaign this past month that seemed to draw in > a decent amount of traffic but cost $50/month so I had to kill it after 1 > month. In case I haven't already said this, thank you for trying, and please keep at it. > "Trash talking has always been a part of Netrek". This mindset > needs to change. Yes. I'm open to suggestions, like defaulting new players to a non-RCD mute until they ask for it to be released. While I'm sure there are server owners who wouldn't want to enable this, I'd like to give it a try. (We'd need to make sure MacTrek did RCDs) -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From rogerborg at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 06:10:53 2007 From: rogerborg at gmail.com (Colin MacDonald) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:10:53 +0100 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> Message-ID: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> On 3/31/07, Zach wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > That's great. I'm curious as to precisely how you determined a given > player was using a borg in your judgement? Does anyone know of any > borg bot code I could see? > Zach Combat features can be taken from the robot code in the server. Info-borg features are fairly trivial to add; showing cloakers on the tactical, or army counts for all planets, for example, just involves commenting out an if() Clues to the presence of a borg are it consistently responding to stimuli in a distinctive fashion, e.g. autophasering at a set distance, or behaviour that would be hard to achieve with real input, such as spamming torps in multiple directions almost simultaneously. Detecting infoborgs is harder, unless they're helpful enough to send team messages or RCDs every time they spot an enemy ship picking a planet. An ethical borg developer (even playing on a non-RSA server) will change the pigcall (5 spaces) response to identify their client. A really ethical developer will turn off the borg features when t-mode starts. An unethical borg developer (on an RSA server) will use the pigcall of the blessed client that he's using to spoof the RSA check. As this is the dev list, I might as well detail how RSA spoofing works. Anyone capable of implementing this is probably capable of figuring it out as well, so I don't accept the proposition that obscurity brings security. Trivially, the borg client performs a man-in-the-middle attack. It opens a listening socket (you can just swipe the server code) and both connects to the real server, and accepts a connection from a blessed client (note: any blessed client, running on any platform, not necessarily the same as the one that the borg runs on) that you'll use to spoof the RSA check. When the borg client receives the RSA challenge from the server, it passes it on to the blessed client, which dutifully produces the response, which the borg client passes back to the server. It can then just terminate the connection to the blessed client. The subtelty is that the RSA response encodes the result of a getpeername(), to try and spot this MitM attack. To defeat that, you have to ensure that getpeername() reports (to the blessed client) that it's talking to the server, not the borg client. You can (off the top of my head): Linux: recompile your kernel. Solaris: provide a replacement .so that just implements getpeername() at runtime when linked dynamically to the client. Windows: provide a shim ws2_32.dll that overrides getpeername() and otherwise calls (jmps, actually) to the real dll functions. If blessed client developers want to make things a bit harder, then instead of using getpeername() during the RSA check, instead encode the address that the client was told to connect to (which should be the same as the result of a getpeername()!). This isn't foolproof, but would raise the bar very slightly. The fundamental lesson of this though is that you *cannot* trust the client. Blessing will keep casual hackers at bay, but a determined cracker will blow past the RSA check in a few hours. The only real defence is a design that assumes that the client is a robot, not a human. The good news is that Netrek is actually pretty robust as-is! Vector torps just miss clue targets more efficiently, autophasering is subject to missing under any amount of lag (even if you 'lead' the target) and can just waste fuel if you get the algorithm wrong. Flicking shields on and off under threat conditions is only a minor efficiency gain (and subject to fatal results if you snafu it), and clued players can det or dodge multiple incoming torps more flexibly and effectively (i.e. with a better tactical and strategic outcome) than an algorithm. The biggest potential benefits are (tactically) showing cloakers on the tactical (with irregular and inaccurate positions, heading and speed info), and (strategically) identifying and marking enemy ships that have picked up. A dumb auto-ogger (turn + speed + tractor + phaser + torp + det) can also save you some button mashing, but only under circumstances where a manual ogg would have worked anyway. IME, a borg will just raise the apparent clue level of a player, but only to middling-competent. An actual clue player will do everything that a borg does anyway, and better, because they can adapt their response to the situation. That said, there are a few "info-borg" features that I feel might as well be allowed, in particular showing army counts on-screen by default. The argument that this gives an unfair advantage over people playing with traditional clients is spurious; there's no reason why all clients can't be trivially modified to do this, and limiting all clients to the minimum subset provided by the oldest client is a fine way to ensure stagnation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070331/fcfd7dd9/attachment.htm From williamb at its.caltech.edu Sat Mar 31 06:53:10 2007 From: williamb at its.caltech.edu (William Balcerski) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 04:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Mar 2007, Colin MacDonald wrote: > (snip the howto on borg client) Me personally I'd just crack a valid public RSA key and compile the private key into the client, that seems easiest. > IME, a borg will just raise the apparent clue level of a player, but only to > middling-competent. An actual clue player will do everything that a borg > does anyway, and better, because they can adapt their response to the > situation. > Yup pretty much. > That said, there are a few "info-borg" features that I feel might as well be > allowed, in particular showing army counts on-screen by default. The > argument that this gives an unfair advantage over people playing with > traditional clients is spurious; there's no reason why all clients can't be > trivially modified to do this, and limiting all clients to the minimum > subset provided by the oldest client is a fine way to ensure stagnation. > Agree 100%, especially with that last few words. This brings us back to the question some raised - who is responsible ultimately for deciding what features are acceptable and what are borg? Some might say that the players should have the ultimate say but that is not a good idea, as a vocal few can easily drown out the silent majority. Plus the add of any new info-borgish features should be geared to future players not the current players, many I'm sure who want to see newbies have to endure the same steep learning curve they had to suffer. Bill From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 07:41:45 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:41:45 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/31/07, James Cameron wrote: > > In case I haven't already said this, thank you for trying, and please > keep at it. I second that sentiment. > Yes. I'm open to suggestions, like defaulting new players to a non-RCD > mute until they ask for it to be released. While I'm sure there are > server owners who wouldn't want to enable this, I'd like to give it a > try. But the biggest offenders in this issue are on the non-newbie side :) Zach From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 07:52:38 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:38 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/31/07, Colin MacDonald wrote: [...] Wow great message Colin. Very cool, thanks. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 07:56:25 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:56:25 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/31/07, William Balcerski wrote: > > Agree 100%, especially with that last few words. This brings us back to > the question some raised - who is responsible ultimately for deciding what > features are acceptable and what are borg? Some might say that the > players should have the ultimate say but that is not a good idea, as a > vocal few can easily drown out the silent majority. Plus the add of any > new info-borgish features should be geared to future players not the > current players, many I'm sure who want to see newbies have to endure the > same steep learning curve they had to suffer. Perhaps each server can have a voting mechanism (website, email, poll) where players can vote for allowing a certain borg feature to be supported on that server, so the clients could have any features they want but only the ones voted on for a given server could the client enable for use on that server. Is it possible to have the client do a handshake a receive a list of options it must turn off (or is forced off even) or is that not very feasible? Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 08:00:16 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:00:16 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070331130016.GB16132@us.netrek.org> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 08:41:45AM -0400, Zach wrote: > > Yes. I'm open to suggestions, like defaulting new players to a non-RCD > > mute until they ask for it to be released. While I'm sure there are > > server owners who wouldn't want to enable this, I'd like to give it a > > try. > > But the biggest offenders in this issue are on the non-newbie side :) Yes, I know. The non-RCD mute would reduce the chances of the newbie hearing them, at least until they had a basic understanding of the strategy messages inherent in RCD-only communications. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 07:58:29 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:58:29 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070331125829.GA16132@us.netrek.org> +1 -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 08:04:07 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:04:07 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts In-Reply-To: <20070331110154.GD5776@us.netrek.org> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331110154.GD5776@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: According to Joe a lot of new players have tried netrek in the past 6-12 months and I have noticed this myself anecdotally, but obviously we are not retaining enough of them. So this is the question we must focus on. I think we should approach this from two tracts: the server and client efforts. On the server side I think a paradise server and even a fun chaos server will help. and it would be good if they had something on the motd or login screen that made it clear that the purest form of netrek is bronco and once players learn the basics they are encouraged to play on the bronco servers. In the past having a good newbie server with bots also seemed to help. So if someone could run one again that would be good, the code is already done for that. There are also some tricks we could do with the metaserver and client to "strongly encourage" users to play on bronco servers if decline of bronco t mode becomes an issue again in light of new non-bronco servers ;-) On the client side many have talked about this in the past many times including myself but I think for the sake of the discussion it is worth repeating: must focus on better graphics that will make the tweens, teens and college students say "Wow this looks cool!" and very good 3D sound comparable to what they get in other games, this is what their expectations are and while we all realize the real strength of netrek is in its' rich strategic and team gameplay and coordination of group efforts the typical newbie will not yet appreciate this so we must put a very nice worm on the hook to lure in the fishes :) OpenGL graphics and SDL sound seem to be the way to go since their are toolkits/APIs for these which are multi-platform. Some have suggested a single client codebase and I'm not sure what the relative merits/weaknesses of that are right now but it may be something to consider. We could still have individuals responsible for different flavors of the client (something like skins) and instead of having BRMH client, COW client, XP 2006, XP Mod, MacTrek we could have Netrek Client + BRMH theme/skin, Netrek Client + Eric's mod. The newbie would be able to ideally easily switch and try different themes regardless of what platform/arch they are using. Another idea I had is to allow players to create mods (the whole borg issue would need to be considered) so that they could easily change certain things like ship types, sounds, GUI look, etc.. Modding is very popular in many games right now. I also feel whatever we do it is imperative we design a more intuitive help system and configuration system comparable to what the typical user will be used to from most major games (there are about 3 or 4 basic designs I've noticed with minor variations). One part of successful marketing it's finding out the end users/customer's expectations and meeting them. Just some things to think about. Word of mouth advertising also helps. I wonder how many regular players tell their family, friends, coworkers about it. Or if you have a blog or website mention netrek and provide helpful links. This may seem trivial but it can have a very good cumulative effect if everyone is doing it! Once we get critical mass we can get a healthy clue scene going again. As I've said in the past there is a symbiotic relationship between the two. A healthy pickup scene will fuel a healthy clue scene and vice versa. Clued netrek is the most intense, exciting and educational and once players advance to that level many will be "hooked" and be lifetime players heh. In recent years it is no coincidence that as the clue scene suddenly dropped off we saw a massive correlated drop off in pickup and many regular long time clued players decided to retire for good, and others who used to regularly play pickup now only pop in once a month or every few months. I don't want to get into a chicken or egg mode but you could also argue that the clued players lost interest because the quality of pickup had deteriorated so much (and I personally saw players express this view numerous times) and there were so few clue playing regular pickup. There decision to retire then exacerbated the problem. Since netrek has a steeper learning curve than most popular games we must recognize it will take years before a player advances from a newbie to semi-clue to clue to high clue (if they ever get that far) and I think we'd all agree that having clued players around to teach the newbies and demonstrate clued play and to test and push them is essential. So we need to also be focused on retaining clue and even luring back clue that have retired or got tired of netrek. For some their family and professional and social commitments/priorities make regular netrek prohibitive. I know some who would really like to play but have said they just can't find the time to do it. But as the old saying goes if something is really important to you then you'll make time for it. And I think the majority of clue who've stopped playing have done so for the other reasons I mentioned so there is at least a glimmer of hope of bringing them back :-) Zach From netrek at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 08:05:53 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:05:53 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070331130016.GB16132@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331130016.GB16132@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: On 3/31/07, James Cameron wrote: > > Yes, I know. The non-RCD mute would reduce the chances of the newbie > hearing them, at least until they had a basic understanding of the > strategy messages inherent in RCD-only communications. Ah ok I thought you were saying the newbies would be muted from speaking but would still see what was being said. Gotcha. Zach From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 08:30:40 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:30:40 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Saving netrek In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070331133040.GB11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Zach wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 19:28:11 -0400 -= > On 3/30/07, Rado S wrote: > > > > You think newbs will like a feature enriched Paradise game > > more than Bronco for starters to get hooked up (and later > > maybe learn about Bronco)? > > That is how I got into netrek. { Zach's story into Netrek } Thanks, but I'd like to hear a modern times newbie opinion. James? :) > > I guess advertizing is useless before the landing zone is well > > prepared: places to play with real in-game activity, places to learn > > Exactly and this happened about 5-6 years ago when a player > posted to slashdot about netrek just at the same time that > Karthik and then some others were working on a new plan (forget > the specifics) to attract newbies, so while the player probably > had good intentions their preemption did not do much to attract > and retain new players. > {...} but obviously we are not retaining enough of them. So this > is the question we must focus on. I vaguely remember that. "Retain" is the emphasis here, exactly. I don't doubt that Joe's efforts attracted new flesh, but we didn't keep enough of them. > I think we should approach this from two tracts: the server > and client efforts. {...} I see some more, as mentioned in other threads: - (semi) static docs at a central well known place (www wiki), - in-game tutors with semi-admin power to keep peace rather than arbitrary ejects/ bans (see Paradise royalities). > On the server side I think a paradise server and even a fun > chaos server will help. and it would be good if they had > something on the motd or login screen that made it clear that > the purest form of netrek is bronco and once players learn the > basics they are encouraged to play on the bronco servers. > {...} > There are also some tricks we could do with the metaserver and > client to "strongly encourage" users to play on bronco servers > if decline of bronco t mode becomes an issue again in light of > new non-bronco servers ;-) "pure"??? Even it were a relevant quality to newbies, I don't think it would be one to attract complete strangers to netrek. "Pure" implies less than what you already have, why would you want to go for this if you already like what you have/ where you are? Every player interested in netrek who stays long enough will eventually learn about all other existing netrek styles, even Bronco. ;) Bronco was 1st, ok, but doesn't mean anything more than that, definitely not that it implies that it must be better. Just because some players can't see the qualitiy of other Netrek game styles it doesn't disqualify the games, but rather those players. I like to play any Netrek variant, but I prefer Paradise for its variety (and being closer to the TV-show TNG ;). If you only have limited options where you can support the team, and you don't excel in any of them in a small team of just 8, then this _can_ become frustrating. OTOH, if there are many options, then the chances are better to find a niche and still enjoy the game. Plus, when the team needs _many_ players (more than 8) to function well, then even mediocre players can do well just to provide space control/ coverage. (oh, "scummer" comes to mind ... once it was regarded as a negative quality, ... by those who expected inferior players to stay to be slaughtered by them just to confirm their superiority. D'oh. Actually it shows that even though inferior the guy is smart enough to know when to run to win a game. Ask your team to catch a scummer (sometimes also butt-torper) ;) It's a pity nowadays people don't have the chance to decide unbiased (lack of other server types, meta-server preference of servers/ types, or that people preach "only Bronco is the real deal") what kind of game-style (Bronco, Paradise, ...) they prefer on their own. Maybe Bronco's time is simply over, time to make way for "the next generation" of players and their preferred game-style?! :) > must focus on better graphics that will make the tweens, teens > and college students say "Wow this looks cool!" TedTurner and windows clients look already good enough, I don't think it's worth to put more in the area of better graphics. > and very good 3D sound comparable to what they get in other games, I've never played netrek with sounds, but I know from other games that additional feedback that does _not_ get in the way visually does help a lot. > { code merging related strategies } The plans are out there ... just somebody has to spend the time to execute them. > Another idea I had is to allow players to create mods (the whole > borg issue would need to be considered) so that they could > easily change certain things like ship types, sounds, GUI look, > etc.. Modding is very popular in many games right now. Uh ... "modding" comes later when the original product is well established. > {...} it is imperative we design a more intuitive help system > and configuration system comparable to what the typical user > will be used to from most major games (there are about 3 or 4 > basic designs I've noticed with minor variations). Yes, help + config can be better. > And I am not talking about the historic > type of trash talking and joking which has always been a part of the > game. The problem is: newbies don't know about the history, therefore they can't rate/ judge well how to take such comments. > There is no perfect solution I recognize however I wonder if we > could be doing more security wise. Self-control apparently doesn't work (for various reasons). A delegated control system a la Paradise (possibly extended by the power to ban) might do it. > > A game doesn't see itself anymore by the code alone, especially > > not one such complex as netrek. That was meant to say "sustain", not "see". Meaning: simple games are easy to pick and stick to, while netrek is not. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 08:41:59 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:41:59 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 21:09:17 +1000 -= > > "Trash talking has always been a part of Netrek". This mindset > > needs to change. > > Yes. I'm open to suggestions, like defaulting new players to a > non-RCD mute until they ask for it to be released. While I'm > sure there are server owners who wouldn't want to enable this, > I'd like to give it a try. Wait! The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! At least I remember when I saw them the 1st time: I had _no idea_ what ++ or "ogg" means. And the info alone doesn't help either, an additional clue as to what would be a good reaction would help, too! > (We'd need to make sure MacTrek did RCDs) *sigh* As much as I like to support RCD usage, I still miss some Paradise macro functionality in there. (they probably are of no (good) use for Bronco, but if one size would fit all, it would be more likely to be used ;). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 08:55:49 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:55:49 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Colin MacDonald wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 12:10:53 +0100 -= > That said, there are a few "info-borg" features that I feel might > as well be allowed, in particular showing army counts on-screen by > default. The argument that this gives an unfair advantage over > people playing with traditional clients is spurious; there's no > reason why all clients can't be trivially modified to do this, and > limiting all clients to the minimum subset provided by the oldest > client is a fine way to ensure stagnation. The problem is not backward compatibility with old clients, but backward compatibility with old school player types! They don't _want_ that feeling to change they are used to, and which requires some skill to master that info, which they as cluebies already have while newbies don't have yet, so they can feel better while newbies have to go through the same learning curve of "oh so important" skill, of which they claim it unbalances the game. D'oh. It's a question of preference: a) retain requirement of past times skill as indicator of superiority vs. b) accelerated playing quality. I go for b). Does it really matter _why_ some player does the right thing as long as he does the right thing? He can learn afterwards why it is right if he doesn't get it on his own from the start. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 09:07:07 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:07:07 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070331140707.GE11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- To netrek-dev at us.netrek.org wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 15:55:49 +0200 -= > It's a question of preference: > a) retain requirement of past times skill as indicator of superiority > vs. > b) accelerated playing quality. > > I go for b). > Does it really matter _why_ some player does the right thing as > long as he does the right thing? > He can learn afterwards why it is right if he doesn't get it on > his own from the start. Oh, I forgot one more question of preference (means there is no "correct" answer, the whole community or server-admins must then decide which way to go): a) enjoy a high quality game with good playing on both sides independent of where the playing quality originates from vs. b) a competition to figure out who's the best at a given skill. I'm biased on the latter preference Q, because I don't excel at any relevant skill, therefore I prefer a). :) -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 09:41:33 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:41:33 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] 1 or 2 wikis, what belongs where? In-Reply-To: <20070331105657.GC5776@us.netrek.org> <0qtzw2fly1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331105657.GC5776@us.netrek.org> <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0q1wj6hc7c.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070330174022.GB10187@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <0qtzw2fly1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070331144133.GF11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- James Quick wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 20:56:57 +1000 -= > On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 07:40:22PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > Technically it can, but since there will be 2 wikis, it's unclear > > where it belongs (or generally what will belong where). > > Never wait for a wiki when one already works. You can always > move the content later. If the content is that valuable to you, > then you will have a backup. I'm not worried for the content, but the time wasted for moving stuff between incompatible wikis, if it just takes a little before the other is ready. (I know, we're all still/ already waiting for quite a long time ;). Or didn't you mean a literal "you" as in "Rado", but rather "somebody" ... who then would be this somebody if not I?! ;) =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 17:41:58 -0400 -= > Once the mediawiki does materialize, it is conceivable that we > could migrate the dev content there. Conveivable maybe, but not definite. Plus, see above, if they are significantly incompatible, it will take some extra time converting. > I'd consider marketing discussions to be in the same category as > code dev and server maintainance; backend stuff that could do > just fine on the dev wiki. Unlike the stuff that potential > players see, the dev wiki does not have to look pretty, and it > is available now. Ok, this "backend not for players" is a satisfying distinction for me. Therefore I agree, it belongs to the dev-wiki. *inspecting what've put up there already* > Ineffective would mean not getting the job done. > Inefficient would allow for the possbibility of getting the job > done, just not in the way that makes best use of resources. Thank you very much, makes more sense now, retrying to make sense out of the dictionary with that help. :) Didn't help that "ineffective" had this meaning among others: "not capable of performing efficiently or as expected" or vice versa: "not producing the effect intended or desired, INCAPABLE, INCOMPETENT" -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 09:44:22 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:44:22 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] backward compatibility vs. borg In-Reply-To: <20070331140707.GE11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331135548.GD11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331140707.GE11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070331144422.GG11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- To netrek-dev at us.netrek.org wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 16:07:07 +0200 -= > Oh, I forgot one more question of preference (means there is no > "correct" answer, the whole community or server-admins must then > decide which way to go): > > a) enjoy a high quality game with good playing on both sides > independent of where the playing quality originates from > vs. > b) a competition to figure out who's the best at a given skill. > > > I'm biased on the latter preference Q, because I don't excel at > any relevant skill, therefore I prefer a). :) Argh, sorry again, of course this should have been better phrased: a) high quality game based on good teamplay vs. b) high quality individual skills competition. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 10:27:38 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:27:38 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] new infra-structure against borg In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070331152738.GH11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- William Balcerski wrote on Sat 31.Mar'07 at 4:53:10 -0700 -= > This brings us back to the question some raised - {...} It was me this time, but it certainly has been thought of before. > {...} -who is responsible ultimately for deciding what features > are acceptable and what are borg? Right, still no satisfying answer. :-/ Given that the current RSA state isn't so useful for ensuring fairness (as Colin has laid down), are there other infra- structures needed/ possible to offer more fairness/ trust? If so, who'd decide what is legal and produce blessed binaries? Without an agreement this would eventually end up with the infra- structure providers, like domain owner, server owners. As much as I appreciate the current infra-structure, if there is no clarification on this part, we might need others. > Some might say that the players should have the ultimate say but > that is not a good idea, as a vocal few can easily drown out the > silent majority. Right. > Plus the add of any new info-borgish features should be geared > to future players not the current players, many I'm sure who > want to see newbies have to endure the same steep learning curve > they had to suffer. My suspicion, too. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Sat Mar 31 10:40:14 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:40:14 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts In-Reply-To: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- Andrew K. Bressen wrote on Fri 30.Mar'07 at 18:01:08 -0400 -= > My feeling is that we've got a few pre-req's to be concerned with: > (3) game infrastructure. Karthik has been tossing out ideas for > game mods to help newbies. We should maybe hash these out some. Heh, if we finally get a "go" for ignoring the "borg"-complainers (backward-play-style-compatibility), then this might become unnecessary. ;) > (4) linux client in the major distros. I'm mainly familiar with > Debian; for them, we'd need open source, which means an up to date > COW build. Dave, can we have new Paradise (original) and TT binaries for current linuxes and all other popular OS'es you can access? (I hope for solaris8 + aix4/5 ;) > for ubuntu or fedora, FreeBSD and NetBSD might be worthwhile if > there's a way to cheaply make those users aware of our existence. Yes, if there is no client ready, they don't even have a chance to try. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From mark at mark.mielke.cc Sat Mar 31 13:30:44 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:30:44 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 12:10:53PM +0100, Colin MacDonald wrote: > [ straight forward way to pass the RSA check with a borg client using > man-in-the-middle exploit ] The issue here is two-fold: 1) The client isn't verifying that the server is legitimate before sending information. One-way trust models will always be exploitable in the other direction. 2) The RSA check proves only that the user has access to the client secret key. As the client secret key is distributed freely on public sites, this proof is technically worthless. The RSA check is only slightly better than the old reserved.c check, in that the technology used is more complicated, and therefore more obscure. I think most people would readily understand the first, but may not understand that the real problem is the second. Public key encryption algorithms allow the client to prove it possesses a secret key, without requiring the other agent to know it. This is all it provides. No more, no less. To prove this, consider the other approach to "cracking" the RSA check: Extract the secret key from the public binaries. Even if the module link order is randomized, and the symbol information stripped, the client still contains the secret key, and still must access it when presented with the RSA check. Tracing execution of the client, or disassembling a stripped binary may be beyond many people. It is not beyond all people. The secret key widely distributed in every blessed Netrek client. I don't think there is a way to provide full-proof protection against clients that will may use the information sent by the server to their advantage. The general answer is to restrict the information sent. Netrek already does this to a fairly significant degree. Fun. Cheers, mark -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sat Mar 31 18:29:58 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:29:58 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Survival strategies In-Reply-To: <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message of "Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:09:17 +1000") References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <0qlkhddma1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> James Cameron writes: > Yes. I'm open to suggestions, like defaulting new players to a non-RCD > mute until they ask for it to be released. While I'm sure there are > server owners who wouldn't want to enable this, I'd like to give it a > try. Wouldn't that keep people from giving them constructive clues? From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sat Mar 31 19:46:21 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:46:21 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] technical pre-reqs to marketing efforts In-Reply-To: <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> (Rado S.'s message of "Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:40:14 +0200") References: <0qps6qfl23.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070331154014.GI11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <0qejn4exb6.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> I've now started http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/MarketIdeas please try to make mods short and to the point, and if you are expressing an opinion, sign it... --- Zach, please please use more paragraphs in your email; those huge blocks of text are mind-numbing to look at. Now, on Paradise. I've never played it. I'd really like to. But I think it is foolish to put any effort into it until there are clients for something besides unix. As Sturgeon demonstrated, we don't have enough players to support more than one kind of netrek right now. And I'm not sure the newbies are even reaching a point where Chaos or Sturgeon would make much of a difference to their perceptions. Although wrap is kinda obvious. And I think suggestions that involve programming changes are dicey; yes, an openGL client might be very nice, but do we have the coders? And what can we do in the meantime? > are encouraged to play on the bronco servers. In the past having a > good newbie server with bots also seemed to help. So if someone could pulsar-zone has bots, but no continuous torps (which makes it pretty unplayable for me; single torping would RSI my hands way too quickly). There's a problem, though, which is that since bots aren't listed on the metaserver, there isn't a good way for newbies to know to go there. I was thinking of suggesting changing the hostname to something like "practice" or "newbie", and also stressing use of that server in the newbie guide. But it is the least admin'd of the current bronco servers; Matt clearly does not have time to deal with newbie abuse issues. In regard to semi-retired players, I think once we get the tech pre-reqs in place and ramp up marketing, that we should make a concerted effort to get them back, even on a "let's try to save the game" campaign basis. I think the clue games have succeeded because of scheduling; people who want a solid game are more likely to make a set time than to drop in. I'm wondering if "newbie swim" / "office hours" would be feasible. We set some times where folks will be around to obs for newbies and feed them clues. Maybe some server params could be changed during those times to make the game easier. As far as players who abuse newbs, I think we all have to speak up more and let those folks know that their behavior is not ok. If every time someone is a jerk, four or five other players call them on it, we should hopefully at least reduce the severity of the situation. From ahn at orion.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 23:39:54 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 00:39:54 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> <20070331183043.GA12874@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <20070401043954.GA18309@orion.netrek.org> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 02:30:44PM -0400, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > > To prove this, consider the other approach to "cracking" the RSA > check: Extract the secret key from the public binaries. Even if the > module link order is randomized, and the symbol information stripped, > the client still contains the secret key, and still must access it > when presented with the RSA check. Tracing execution of the client, or > disassembling a stripped binary may be beyond many people. It is not > beyond all people. The secret key widely distributed in every blessed > Netrek client. This is not how RES-RSA works. RES-RSA creates a functional representation (blackbox) of the RSA algorithm specific to the client's secret key, so it does not embed the secret key verbatim in the binary, and the secret key is never reconstructed at runtime. I believe that the functional representation can be reverse engineered to recover the secret key, but this has never been mathematically proven. There are far more effective ways to break RES-RSA than trying to recover the key from a blessed binary. From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 23:43:40 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:43:40 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA for MacTrek In-Reply-To: References: <99D4BEC6-0D82-4467-9E51-299E5BA3CAA4@luky.nl> <37c7fe6a0703310410n682596e2yef7995b72ac602d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070401044340.GA7260@us.netrek.org> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 08:56:25AM -0400, Zach wrote: > Is it possible to have the client do a > handshake a receive a list of options it must turn off (or is forced > off even) or is that not very feasible? Not feasible, too easy to bypass. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From quozl at us.netrek.org Sat Mar 31 23:54:08 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 14:54:08 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] (Trash-) talk control In-Reply-To: <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070330150101.GD9173@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070331110917.GG5776@us.netrek.org> <20070331134159.GC11789@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070401045408.GB7260@us.netrek.org> On Sat, Mar 31, 2007 at 03:41:59PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > Wait! > The default RCDs are way too cryptic for newbies! Fix them. > At least I remember when I saw them the 1st time: I had _no idea_ > what ++ or "ogg" means. ++ means "Saw ship beam up armies". ogg means "Give them a new ship", or "Send them back home", but could be localised into "Kill." > And the info alone doesn't help either, an additional clue as to > what would be a good reaction would help, too! Yes, fix that too please. ++ means "Enemy ship is threatening our planets by picking up armies, kill them, you get more credit for armies in flight." Then a checkbox to enable abbreviated RCD output, and a mouse-over tooltip/hint that explains what "++" and "ogg" mean. -- The point of restricting communication to RCDs is that abuse is less likely to occur. You said that abuse was that important, and I agree. This has nothing to do with clue play. Clue have thick hides. -- And in response to Andrew's observation that it may "keep people from giving them constructive clues", certainly, there is a risk of throwing out more than the bath water. Here's an additional suggestion ... "F0 (Psychosis) wants to be your buddy, do you wish to add them to your buddy list? This will let them talk without using Netrek Code (RCD). Warning: you may be offended." -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/