=- Trent Piepho wrote on Sun 18.Mar'07 at  3:38:51 -0700 -=

> Yes, it has happened to code netrek related and code not netrek related.
> And as to netrek people not being as bad, Bill is possibly the
> most amoral person I've ever has the misfortune to encounter.

Was there any other _netrek_ incident _without_ Bill?
	(netrek-unrelated is irrelevant)
Again: why do you focus so much on the bad guys rather than to
work it out with the good guys? Isn't their credit of more value
to you than the bad guys'?

You still ignore the fact that even though single black sheep
might do wrong, the whole of the community _knows_ about it and
will assign credit appropriately, if it means so much to you.

You still haven't explained what the worth of that credit is.
Why is it so important to you that you'd prevent people from
porting your client to other platforms?

> { Obsession with what everything bad Bill has done to you }

You are too obsessed with Bill. Just forget about him and return
to the community.

> > Plus, public code tracking could always prove your point.
>
> If had released my code, he would have cut and pasted it and
> pretended he wrote it and public code tracking wouldn't do a
> thing to change it.

Again: WHO CARES? WHY? The community knows better to give _you_
the credit, and that's all that matters, or not?

If the community ChangeLog says _you_ did it (if you submit your
code to the netrek project), then nobody can fake this without the
whole community noticing. Have you ever used public code tracking
with others?

> Maybe if you had the experience with others taking credit for
> your work that I have had, you would understand. Of course, one
> actually has to produce work in order for someone else to take
> credit for it.

I have had work done (not for netrek), but it was never
"stolen", because it was always given out for free, shared!
It never could have been stolen. That's what you fail to grasp.
Why does it matter _who_ did something good when it serves the
whole independent of the contributor?
Are you after some kind of reward?
Which one? What means credit to you?

> Maybe instead of telling me what I should do, you should go do
> something.

Well... if you'd let me (or anyone else), we could make your
client more portable, something that you complained about others
while you yourself failed for it and used as excuse to lock down.
 Oh wait, I can't, it's locked down.
- They don't do it.
- I don't do it.
=> then nobody else should do it for me. How logical.

> > > I don't release my code anymore because of how it effects me.
> >
> > That is exactly _how_?
> 
> Maybe if you produced something, and someone else took credit
> for it, you would understand.

This will probably never happen, because it doesn't mean the same
to me as to you.
That's why I ask you to put it in your words for me to read so I
get a chance to understand your meaning of "credit".

> > > If I don't help the netrek community more than I do, and I've
> > > put more open source code into the server than you have Rado,
> > > then that's just too bad.
> >
> > The messenger doesn't affect the message.
> 
> Maybe the messenger doesn't have the experience to know what
> he's talking about.

How would you know how much experience I have?
Which is besides the point anyway.
When I say 1+1=2, what relevance has any quality of the messenger?
It's true by itself. If you want to challenge that, bring on
facts, don't distract by pointing out irrelevant qualities (your
superiors or somebody else's inferiors).

> > Just because you might have put more code into the server, this
> > doesn't justify anything bad that you do elsewhere.
> 
> If I give $100 to a charity, is that a bad thing to do? Because
> I didn't give $200?

No. It's a bad thing that if you give to charity, you may steal
elsewhere. Donating to the server doesn't balance what you do to
the client. The amount doesn't matter anway, just the quality.

> Would it be better if I wrote a netrek client and just never
> told anyone about it or let anyone else use it?

Irrelevant. It's only usable to a limited (small) number of people.
It can't be ported to be of use to many more.
It can't be extended by anyone else but you.
When you die virtually, so does your code: wasted.
Has happened before, that's bad.

> Just because something is as good as you would like, doesn't
> make it bad.

Well, as you yourself admitted, there is not only "too little
good" about it, but rather there is also "bad" stuff, or else you
wouldn't have started it "because other people called some
features borg so I could put them in without them shouting".

And as pointed out before: as much "good" as there might be in one
area in your client, it doesn't justify the "bad" in another.

> > { difference between client + server credit }
>
> I do not think code in the netrek server has much potential to
> be plagiarized. And I can't run my own server.

What has "running a server" to do with it?

You mean because there is just 1 code-base for the server?
What if somebody copied over all your contributions to some other
server code and claims it's his?

So by artificially keeping your codebase separate you feed your
own paranoia?!
Why did you have to make a new project, why didn't you simply
continue the Paradise client project, which _was_ more portable
than yours?!

> If there were secret borg features, why would I release the code
> for them anyway? It would be easy enough to strip it out.

I guess producing blessed binaries could be handled automatically
by a keymaster on the compile farm. He'd have to get the code from
you and just add the blessing, so you couldn't do that.

> Maybe you should be worried about the person who's been banned
> from pickled because his idea of fun is logging in multiple
> times to abuse the ban command to kick people out.

That's been handled already, so your point is moot.
Again you try to distract from your case by pointing to other bad
examples. This doesn't get you off the hook.
Every case gets its own treatment.

> You deleted a line you wrote, let me put it back for you.
> 
> > We should struggle together, not against each other.
> 
> What benefit do you hope to effect with your actions, and to
> whom is it directed?

a) if you release your code: more cooperation for netrek as whole,
	and stop the mess with Bill.
b) if you don't, that people don't mistake your client as well
	accepted and openly available as any other client.

-- 
© Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.