From quozl at us.netrek.org Tue May 1 03:50:47 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:50:47 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] feature, virtual servers Message-ID: <20070501085047.GA20036@us.netrek.org> A patch pushed just now adds support for virtual servers via environment variables, propogated to each server process. Impact negligible unless you are using the NETREK_PKEY environment variable already. Change your scripts to use PKEY. getpath.c: new feature, accept directories from environment variables. Bug fix: limit file name path length to allocated space. openmem.c: change from NETREK_PKEY to PKEY for the shared memory key environment variable. Bug fix: use PKEY also as a semaphore set identifier. INSTALL: new feature, document how to set up virtual servers using the same binaries. Running two servers on one host, same binaries ---------------------------------------------- 1. build the server as usual, to the point of "make install", 2. duplicate the etc/ and var/ tree, once per virtual server, cd /usr/local/games/netrek cp -pr etc etc.inl cp -pr var var.inl 3. configure each etc tree to use separate IP addresses or port numbers, 4. start each server with a unique PKEY and SYSCONFDIR, PKEY=128 netrekd SYSCONFDIR=/usr/local/games/netrek/etc.inl \ LOCALSTATEDIR=/usr/local/games/netrek/var.inl \ PKEY=129 netrekd -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From narcis at luky.nl Sat May 5 09:21:14 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:21:14 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.2.0 Released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27313E38-6624-4573-BEA9-F9BFFD040AFC@luky.nl> Hi, As of now MacTrek 1.2 is the main version in the field. Support on the 1.1 branch (1.1.2) is officially dropped. SVN holds the release versions as well as development branches of all releases. The work on 1.1 branch contains a beta of 1.1.3 which will not be completed since all bugs are also patched in 1.2.0. You may expect 1.2.x updates with bugfixes until 1.3 is released (main development trunk) Hopefully not too many. For the daring ones, 1.3.0beta1 from SVN compiles and seems to authenticate too. The entire comm libraries were re-written from scratch, expect enough performance gain to move to 50 FPS (but that's a whole different story) Release 1.2.0 ------------- Update: - Added macro handling - Added reading macros from file - Added Rendezvous (1667734) - Added William Balcerski to credits (artwork) - Added support for sending/receiving RCD/RCM (1682996) - Added distress keys - Added experimental resolution switching (1678784) - Added improvements in cloaking behaviour - Added new graphics for wrench, fuel and army - Added map-able mouse keys (1666849) - Added voice commands (1663917) - Added continious mouse steering (1636254) - Added interaction on galactic map (1636263) - Added new tracker sync screenupdates with server (1636277) - Added support for command-Q (Apple Quit) - Added licence file - Added support for sturgon & hockey servers (1595617) - Bugfix in RCD handling (1684823) - Bugfix race condition causing hangs resolved (1691205) - Bugfix return focus to GameView after send message (1636270) - Bugfix keymap changes are sometimes not processed - Bugfix RSA enabling error resolved - Bugfix settings only saved upon game entry (1674341) - Bugfix server reading of messages - Bugfix to send messages up to player "k" - Bugfix local echo of own messages - Bugfix display of shield/label while cloaked - Bugfix hogcall fixed (1625370) - Changed cleanup of mainnibs - Changed handling of settings (1682996) - Changed default key for quit is now "Q" not "q" (1684995) - Changed presentation of war declaration (1682448) - Changed entry screen for backport to OS X 10.3 - Changed presentation of key map by sorting them - Changed label only shown for 1 player (COW compliance) - Changed graphics classic theme (improved) - Changed settings dialogue (tab pane) - Changed presentation of cloaked ships (COW compliance) - Changed disabled debug labels (COW compliance) - Changed logging mechanism - Changed User Manual / Licence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070505/bcd4ed7c/attachment.htm From narcis at luky.nl Sun May 6 17:14:26 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:14:26 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/ > 20070505/bcd4ed7c/attachment.html Wauw, that's a lot of garbage, i shall quickly change my mail client back to ascii mail. From narcis at luky.nl Mon May 7 16:14:27 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 23:14:27 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.2 hits Apple Downloads page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi gang, Apple has listed MacTrek at and we are already close to another 1000 downloads. Let's hope even 1% sticks around :-) 1.2 seems to authenticate on all servers and i see new users popping up, it would be interesting to mine the logs to see how many created accounts and actually stayed arround? regards Chris From jrd at gerdesas.com Mon May 7 18:13:26 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 18:13:26 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] MacTrek 1.2 hits Apple Downloads page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070507231326.GQ18103@mail.beanhq.com> On Mon, May 07, 2007 at 11:14:27PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > Hi gang, > > Apple has listed MacTrek at games/action_adventure/mactrek.html> and we are already close to > another 1000 downloads. Let's hope even 1% sticks around :-) I have seen multiple newbies today on pickled. Again, each of the newbies knows how to read and write messages, which is a major improvement over newbies using all other clients. I have, however, noticed that 3 of the newbies had no idea how to move. Perhaps you can add a tutorial or provide more / better documentaion on the basics? I am unfamiliar with your client as I am not a mac user, so I am unaware if you are shipping documentation or a tutorial. > 1.2 seems to authenticate on all servers and i see new users popping > up, it would be interesting to mine the logs to see how many created > accounts and actually stayed arround? Glad to see RSA working - this means we are one step closer to being able to re-enable RSA on the primary servers. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070507/73d977e4/attachment.pgp From narcis at luky.nl Tue May 8 13:49:28 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 20:49:28 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am unfamiliar with your client as I am not a mac user, > so I am unaware if you are shipping documentation It's always difficult to read :-) the manual is included in the download, seperatly available through SF and linked to the project page. > or a tutorial. Thinking about that, but then as a server, which would actually train the user, bit hard to implement though. From narcis at luky.nl Wed May 9 14:55:41 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 21:55:41 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Observer mode and multiple meta servers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63D1FBC0-098B-4152-8B12-96D020C19F5D@luky.nl> Hi, i have two small questions: 1.) i am trying to find out how observer mode works. Connecting to eg. pickled at 2593 is apparently not enough. I tried JTrek too. but am in the dark what a client should do to act as observer 2.) what would be good metaservers to probe? metaserver.netrek.org ? what else? and would they list the same servers or different ones? regards Chris From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed May 9 19:02:41 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:02:41 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Observer mode and multiple meta servers In-Reply-To: <63D1FBC0-098B-4152-8B12-96D020C19F5D@luky.nl> References: <63D1FBC0-098B-4152-8B12-96D020C19F5D@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070510000241.GA11190@us.netrek.org> On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 09:55:41PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > 1.) i am trying to find out how observer mode works. Connecting to > eg. pickled at 2593 is apparently not enough. I tried JTrek too. but > am in the dark what a client should do to act as observer Observer mode is very like playing mode. > 2.) what would be good metaservers to probe? metaserver.netrek.org ? > what else? and would they list the same servers or different ones? Should probe all of them, and merge the result. Use UDP for the probe. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From narcis at luky.nl Fri May 11 10:28:43 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:28:43 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <358E42D4-99D0-4B1B-ACC0-7B71D2651864@luky.nl> > On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 09:55:41PM +0200, Narcis wrote: >> 1.) i am trying to find out how observer mode works. Connecting to >> eg. pickled at 2593 is apparently not enough. I tried JTrek too. but >> am in the dark what a client should do to act as observer > > Observer mode is very like playing mode. Like in: i get killed? i had presumed to be invisible to other players or at least invincible :) but it seems i have to join a team and simply play..? >> 2.) what would be good metaservers to probe? metaserver.netrek.org ? >> what else? and would they list the same servers or different ones? > > Should probe all of them, and merge the result. Use UDP for the > probe. Merging, no problem, UDP need to check but question remains: which server to probe? i only know of metaserver.netrek.org. regards C From narcis at luky.nl Fri May 11 10:32:43 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 17:32:43 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Netrek 1.2 and players unable to move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <079FF3D6-DE6D-4FFD-9011-27D69ED30A84@luky.nl> I was thinking about the remark earlier that player remained stationairy. Whoever encounters a player unable to move can tell them to hit the normal keys 0-9 % etc or shout "max" at their computer, if their mic is open, the client should respond to basic voice commands. Unless your accent confuses OS X :-) i my case i usually end up cloaked when ask to raise the shields. regards C From jrd at gerdesas.com Fri May 11 11:31:17 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:31:17 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <358E42D4-99D0-4B1B-ACC0-7B71D2651864@luky.nl> References: <358E42D4-99D0-4B1B-ACC0-7B71D2651864@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070511163117.GY18103@mail.beanhq.com> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 05:28:43PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > > Like in: i get killed? i had presumed to be invisible to other > players or > at least invincible :) but it seems i have to join a team and simply > play..? Anyone coming into the game on the observer port is put in the observer queue and marked as an observer. You /do/, however, still need to join a team. Most observers enter via right-clicking on a server name in the metaserver list. How are you archieving the same thing? > Merging, no problem, UDP need to check but question remains: which > server > to probe? i only know of metaserver.netrek.org. metaserver.netrek.org is a round-robin DNS (apparently) pointing to sage.real-time.org and orion.netrek.org. metaserver.us.netrek.org points directly at sage.real-time.com, and metaserver2.us.netrek.org points directly at orion.netrek.org. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070511/ccb626cc/attachment.pgp From jrd at gerdesas.com Fri May 11 11:33:07 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:33:07 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Netrek 1.2 and players unable to move In-Reply-To: <079FF3D6-DE6D-4FFD-9011-27D69ED30A84@luky.nl> References: <079FF3D6-DE6D-4FFD-9011-27D69ED30A84@luky.nl> Message-ID: <20070511163307.GZ18103@mail.beanhq.com> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 05:32:43PM +0200, Narcis wrote: > > Whoever encounters a player unable to move > can tell them to hit the normal keys 0-9 % etc or > shout "max" at their computer, if their mic is open, > the client should respond to basic voice commands. I have helped multiple mactrek users in the past couple of days. Helping them is not a problem, at least for me. What is a problem is that they are unaware of how to do it on their own. That's a client documentation issue that should probably be corrected. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070511/04ce2d76/attachment.pgp From narcis at luky.nl Fri May 11 12:39:56 2007 From: narcis at luky.nl (Narcis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:39:56 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69BC8F49-66F2-4F90-B6AD-F6BB7060EE0D@luky.nl> > Anyone coming into the game on the observer port is put in > the observer queue and marked as an observer. You /do/, > however, still need to join a team. > > Most observers enter via right-clicking on a server name in > the metaserver list. How are you archieving the same thing? for now you have to type :2593 behind the server name (default is 2592) i think i'll add a button for observer to accomplish that. > > metaserver.netrek.org is a round-robin DNS (apparently) pointing > to sage.real-time.org and orion.netrek.org. > metaserver.us.netrek.org points directly at sage.real-time.com, and > metaserver2.us.netrek.org points directly at orion.netrek.org. thanks Chris From netrek at gmail.com Fri May 11 13:08:16 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:08:16 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20070511163117.GY18103@mail.beanhq.com> References: <358E42D4-99D0-4B1B-ACC0-7B71D2651864@luky.nl> <20070511163117.GY18103@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: On 5/11/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > metaserver.netrek.org is a round-robin DNS (apparently) pointing > to sage.real-time.org and orion.netrek.org. > metaserver.us.netrek.org points directly at sage.real-time.com, and > metaserver2.us.netrek.org points directly at orion.netrek.org. There is also metaserver.eu.netrek.org: http://metaserver.eu.netrek.org:1080/ Zach From jrd at gerdesas.com Fri May 11 13:19:08 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:19:08 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-dev Digest, Vol 27, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: <358E42D4-99D0-4B1B-ACC0-7B71D2651864@luky.nl> <20070511163117.GY18103@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070511181908.GB18103@mail.beanhq.com> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 02:08:16PM -0400, Zach wrote: > On 5/11/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > There is also metaserver.eu.netrek.org: Round-robin DNS pointing to the same hosts that metaserver.netrek.org points to. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070511/2c0e8875/attachment.pgp From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Sat May 12 13:50:19 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 14:50:19 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] clue game observer bust bug? Message-ID: <0qps55nafo.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> The log from wednesday's clue game said: GOD->ALL guest (Fp) [CA] was kill 25.29 for the GhostBusters GOD->ALL guest's 3 armies placed on Earth I thought the observer bust bug was fixed? From jrd at gerdesas.com Sat May 12 16:20:29 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 16:20:29 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] clue game observer bust bug? In-Reply-To: <0qps55nafo.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qps55nafo.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070512212029.GA6392@mail.beanhq.com> On Sat, May 12, 2007 at 02:50:19PM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > The log from wednesday's clue game said: > GOD->ALL guest (Fp) [CA] was kill 25.29 for the GhostBusters > GOD->ALL guest's 3 armies placed on Earth > > I thought the observer bust bug was fixed? The bug was fixed Thursday or Friday by Karth. It has not, I imagine, been installed on the clue server yet and was definately not in place Wed. evening. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070512/bd68dd82/attachment.pgp From netrek at gmail.com Wed May 23 14:44:38 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:44:38 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] mactrek and newbies Message-ID: Anecdotally MacTrek is bringing in many newbies in past few weeks I've noticed. I saw at least 6 new MacTrek players this afternoon alone. And in past 7 days I've seen at least 20 new MacTrek players. Many from Europe as well. Zach From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Wed May 23 21:20:06 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 22:20:06 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? Message-ID: <0qmyzvdktl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> A few minutes ago, my client's metaserver display (p2k) showed 22 players on home.clue.netrek.org From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Thu May 24 01:05:51 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:05:51 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] password questions Message-ID: <0q7iqyeoxs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Something I do not have documented on the website which is bound to come up is: how do you change a password? (can this even be done by a player?) how do you ask for a password reset? (send mail to the admin?) how do you view the player database on a server? (like, can I find out who has the highest kill ratio or kph on a given server?) Any answers? --akb From jrd at gerdesas.com Thu May 24 02:13:59 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:13:59 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] password questions In-Reply-To: <0q7iqyeoxs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q7iqyeoxs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070524071359.GC5790@mail.beanhq.com> On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 02:05:51AM -0400, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Something I do not have documented on the website > which is bound to come up is: > how do you change a password? (can this even be done by a player?) Send the message "password new_password new_password" to yourself while in the game, replacing "new_password" with your desired new password. > how do you ask for a password reset? (send mail to the admin?) That procedure is fine with me for base-practice; as long as the person mailing me can convince me that they are the actual character owner. > how do you view the player database on a server? If the server is running the RSA key updater with the option to update the MOTD it will present various stats in the server's MOTD. warped has it enabled if you want to see the output format. There is also a 'scores' port (tcp/2590) that can be enabled that is supposed to list names, hours, planets, bombing, offense and defense stats for the entire player database. No server I am aware of has this enabled at the moment. Also, I just enabled it on my dev server and it appears not to work any longer. I get this: Name Hours Planets Bombing Offense Defense Totals 0.00 10 10 10 10 Other then these 2 methods there is no way for a player to list the player database that I am aware of. > (like, can I find out who has the highest kill ratio or kph on a given server?) I have been playing around with a simple stats program, but it's very low on my priority list. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070524/82fed20d/attachment.pgp From quozl at us.netrek.org Thu May 24 17:48:00 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:48:00 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] password questions In-Reply-To: <0q7iqyeoxs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q7iqyeoxs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070524224800.GB5458@us.netrek.org> As John said, player changing password on a server is done using the password command. Admin changes use ntpasswd command. I'm not too worried about changing passwords as a server admin, since the only thing I'm protecting is reputation and stats. If you haven't already done it, please add a few points about the password security: 1. it is sent in the clear over the network connection, easily observed using wireshark or some other tool, 2. it is stored in the Netrek server player database using a one-way cryptographic transformation, 3. it may appear in server logs, depending on how the server administrator has configured the debugging features, 4. it will appear in game logs or server recordings if the password command is used, Given that the password is only intended to protect re-use of your stats on a server, we consider the impact low. Players should avoid using a password that has any other meaning or use for them. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From netrek at gmail.com Thu May 24 23:36:50 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 00:36:50 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] [netrek-clue-games] Re: Weekly Clue Game Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <3b7ff520705240405h26fc2779md6cac31831bf837@mail.gmail.com> <1180049130.949713.298000@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20070524233918.GI5790@mail.beanhq.com> <1180051686.510704.261070@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> <20070525003916.GK5790@mail.beanhq.com> <20070525041348.GL5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: Good idea but will be hard to do in practice since I don't know of any netrek client or server mechanism that allows a sound to be played to all clients. Also one could have the sound muted at the OS level or be playing music or watching a movie that could be using the sound channel so they wouldn't hear it anyways. I think maybe something like xbiff could be coded where the client will pop up a dialog box in the center of the screen saying "Clue game about to begin." This shouldn't be too hard to implement in the clients. Zach On 5/25/07, Rickie Malgren wrote: > > I don't know any way of fixing the problem of games starting late, but > I have a suggestion on how people can get things done while waiting > and still be ready on time. > > When I log into a clue game, I'll idle until the game's ready to > start, and several people can do the same. THE DIFFERENCE IS that the > person in charge of the server could write a special macro that will > play a one-minute, LOUD tune WHEN THE CLUE GAME IS ABOUT TO START so > that people will know when to get back on the computer. That way, > people could get things done and know when the game is about to start. > > It's a suggestion--what do you think? > > > On 5/24/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 11:57:26PM -0400, Zach wrote: > > > > > > As several pointed out the issue of players who will play in the clue > > > game hanging out on pickup servers until the last possible minute is > > > problematic. So we need to *encourage* them to join the clue server. > > > Perhaps someone can show up on pickup and use a macro to ALL to get > > > their attention that clue game is going to start and to please show up > > > on time. Another idea I had is to have the clue servers show up on the > > > metaservers sooner. If game time is scheduled for 22:00 EST then have > > > the clueservers show up on metaserver at 21:00 EST. > > > > 1) I have been doing exactly that on pickled since the clue > > games started up again. > > > > 2) Clue server is listed on the meta 30-45 minutes prior to > > game time. > > > > 3) The primary issue, for the umpteenth time, is players > > /not showing up on time/. > > > > 4) The ones that show up late are the same ones, week > > after week. They are the semi-clue and clue players > > that all should know better. > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > -- > > "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." > > As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to > > be put through to an engineer. > > > > "My other computer is your windows box." > > Ralf Hildebrandt > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Netrek Clue Games" group. > To post to this group, send email to netrek-clue-games at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to netrek-clue-games-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/netrek-clue-games?hl=en > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > From chronosws at comcast.net Fri May 25 00:05:01 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:05:01 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] [netrek-clue-games] Re: Weekly Clue Game Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <3b7ff520705240405h26fc2779md6cac31831bf837@mail.gmail.com> <1180049130.949713.298000@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20070524233918.GI5790@mail.beanhq.com> <1180051686.510704.261070@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> <20070525003916.GK5790@mail.beanhq.com> <20070525041348.GL5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <005101c79e8a$42ca7b30$c85f7190$@net> I've previous made a suggestion that we need to modify the metaclient and metaserver to allow people to register for notifications about games such that when enough people have registered interest in a particular game, all are notified and provided the option to immediately connect. This does require a change to the code however, but it is not a change to the server code. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 9:37 PM To: netrek-clue-games at googlegroups.com Cc: Netrek Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] [netrek-clue-games] Re: Weekly Clue Game Announcement Good idea but will be hard to do in practice since I don't know of any netrek client or server mechanism that allows a sound to be played to all clients. Also one could have the sound muted at the OS level or be playing music or watching a movie that could be using the sound channel so they wouldn't hear it anyways. I think maybe something like xbiff could be coded where the client will pop up a dialog box in the center of the screen saying "Clue game about to begin." This shouldn't be too hard to implement in the clients. Zach On 5/25/07, Rickie Malgren wrote: > > I don't know any way of fixing the problem of games starting late, but > I have a suggestion on how people can get things done while waiting > and still be ready on time. > > When I log into a clue game, I'll idle until the game's ready to > start, and several people can do the same. THE DIFFERENCE IS that the > person in charge of the server could write a special macro that will > play a one-minute, LOUD tune WHEN THE CLUE GAME IS ABOUT TO START so > that people will know when to get back on the computer. That way, > people could get things done and know when the game is about to start. > > It's a suggestion--what do you think? > > > On 5/24/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 11:57:26PM -0400, Zach wrote: > > > > > > As several pointed out the issue of players who will play in the clue > > > game hanging out on pickup servers until the last possible minute is > > > problematic. So we need to *encourage* them to join the clue server. > > > Perhaps someone can show up on pickup and use a macro to ALL to get > > > their attention that clue game is going to start and to please show up > > > on time. Another idea I had is to have the clue servers show up on the > > > metaservers sooner. If game time is scheduled for 22:00 EST then have > > > the clueservers show up on metaserver at 21:00 EST. > > > > 1) I have been doing exactly that on pickled since the clue > > games started up again. > > > > 2) Clue server is listed on the meta 30-45 minutes prior to > > game time. > > > > 3) The primary issue, for the umpteenth time, is players > > /not showing up on time/. > > > > 4) The ones that show up late are the same ones, week > > after week. They are the semi-clue and clue players > > that all should know better. > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > -- > > "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." > > As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to > > be put through to an engineer. > > > > "My other computer is your windows box." > > Ralf Hildebrandt > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Netrek Clue Games" group. > To post to this group, send email to netrek-clue-games at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to netrek-clue-games-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/netrek-clue-games?hl=en > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From netrek at gmail.com Fri May 25 00:22:52 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 01:22:52 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] [netrek-clue-games] Re: Weekly Clue Game Announcement In-Reply-To: <005101c79e8a$42ca7b30$c85f7190$@net> References: <1180049130.949713.298000@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com> <20070524233918.GI5790@mail.beanhq.com> <1180051686.510704.261070@x18g2000prd.googlegroups.com> <20070525003916.GK5790@mail.beanhq.com> <20070525041348.GL5790@mail.beanhq.com> <005101c79e8a$42ca7b30$c85f7190$@net> Message-ID: Yes and I made a similar suggestion in my long list of client/server features that would be cool. Zach On 5/25/07, ChronosWS wrote: > I've previous made a suggestion that we need to modify the metaclient and > metaserver to allow people to register for notifications about games such > that when enough people have registered interest in a particular game, all > are notified and provided the option to immediately connect. This does > require a change to the code however, but it is not a change to the server > code. > > -----Original Message----- > From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org > [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Zach > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 9:37 PM > To: netrek-clue-games at googlegroups.com > Cc: Netrek Development Mailing List > Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] [netrek-clue-games] Re: Weekly Clue Game > Announcement > > Good idea but will be hard to do in practice since I don't know of any > netrek client or server mechanism that allows a sound to be played to > all clients. Also one could have the sound muted at the OS level or be > playing music or watching a movie that could be using the sound > channel so they wouldn't hear it anyways. I think maybe something like > xbiff could be coded where the client will pop up a dialog box in the > center of the screen saying "Clue game about to begin." This shouldn't > be too hard to implement in the clients. > > Zach > > On 5/25/07, Rickie Malgren wrote: > > > > I don't know any way of fixing the problem of games starting late, but > > I have a suggestion on how people can get things done while waiting > > and still be ready on time. > > > > When I log into a clue game, I'll idle until the game's ready to > > start, and several people can do the same. THE DIFFERENCE IS that the > > person in charge of the server could write a special macro that will > > play a one-minute, LOUD tune WHEN THE CLUE GAME IS ABOUT TO START so > > that people will know when to get back on the computer. That way, > > people could get things done and know when the game is about to start. > > > > It's a suggestion--what do you think? > > > > > > On 5/24/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > > > On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 11:57:26PM -0400, Zach wrote: > > > > > > > > As several pointed out the issue of players who will play in the clue > > > > game hanging out on pickup servers until the last possible minute is > > > > problematic. So we need to *encourage* them to join the clue server. > > > > Perhaps someone can show up on pickup and use a macro to ALL to get > > > > their attention that clue game is going to start and to please show up > > > > on time. Another idea I had is to have the clue servers show up on the > > > > metaservers sooner. If game time is scheduled for 22:00 EST then have > > > > the clueservers show up on metaserver at 21:00 EST. > > > > > > 1) I have been doing exactly that on pickled since the clue > > > games started up again. > > > > > > 2) Clue server is listed on the meta 30-45 minutes prior to > > > game time. > > > > > > 3) The primary issue, for the umpteenth time, is players > > > /not showing up on time/. > > > > > > 4) The ones that show up late are the same ones, week > > > after week. They are the semi-clue and clue players > > > that all should know better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > -- > > > "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." > > > As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when > asked to > > > be put through to an engineer. > > > > > > "My other computer is your windows box." > > > Ralf Hildebrandt > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Netrek Clue Games" group. > > To post to this group, send email to netrek-clue-games at googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > netrek-clue-games-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/netrek-clue-games?hl=en > > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From regrado at web.de Tue May 29 12:21:40 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 19:21:40 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise server up for the curious Message-ID: <20070529172140.GK652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Moin to all curious and brave enough to try, but especially to James T.C.: get a Paradise client (RSA not needed, so you can get the source and compile yourself, or if you're restricted to windos, then try Bill's current win-client efforts once he releases a test version) and connect to paradise.homeunix.org I'm curious to learn how James likes this compared to Bronco. To the list-owner: Rob tried to post a similar announcement himself, but didn't get through even though subscribed. Maybe you can clear it up for him. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From regrado at web.de Tue May 29 13:59:59 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:59:59 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> Message-ID: <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- ChronosWS wrote on Thu 12.Apr'07 at 13:49:44 -0700 -= > You would configure this to say which kinds of games you were > interested and potentially which servers you were interested in as > well (in case you specifically want to use only a subset of the > ones listed on the metaserver.) This information would be > communicated to the metaserver at the time a metaserver refresh is > made by the applet. The metaserver, in turn, would broadcast the > number of players waiting for games matching each server to those > who are listening (other applets, the metaserver application, > etc.) When the applet sees that enough players were available to > start tmode for a particular server, it would pop up a > notification informing the user of such, which if clicked would > launch the Netrek client. You don't the metaserver for that. Paradise has the TQ (tournament queue). When you join normally with the client, you send yourself "tq" and are removed from the galaxy into the waiting room (race selection + MOTD, but no autoquit, no kill, but can talk to all channels). The client reports players/ race in the icon title when iconized. When T starts, the client then pops up ready to go. Currently you'd need to start 1 client per server, which is not ideal, so there a meta-server solution would help ... but ... does it really pay off? How many servers are there to track that you'd like to join (by type and ping)? Having 2 clients in the background with 1u/s won't hurt (you aren't in the galaxy anyway, more isn't needed, you can only talk but not be harmed). This is on the to-do list next to "ob" to switch observser status. Might be faster to implement when copied over from Paradise than modifying meta-server. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Tue May 29 15:45:53 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 13:45:53 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> I get a lot of 'this is the way it is' responses. That is not what we are looking for. I am suggesting 'this is the way it could be' to enhance the user experience. - Eliminate any need to run multiple clients - Eliminate any need to jump through hoops, sending special messages to remove you from queues - players don't need to know this, they just want to play a game. - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. The metaserver is the logical place to do this since it is already an aggregator of server information. Further, this style of game setup is becoming quite common with game metaservers providing matchmaking, most notably based on skill or game type desired. We should learn from the rest of the industry. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Rado S Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:00 PM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas =- ChronosWS wrote on Thu 12.Apr'07 at 13:49:44 -0700 -= > You would configure this to say which kinds of games you were > interested and potentially which servers you were interested in as > well (in case you specifically want to use only a subset of the > ones listed on the metaserver.) This information would be > communicated to the metaserver at the time a metaserver refresh is > made by the applet. The metaserver, in turn, would broadcast the > number of players waiting for games matching each server to those > who are listening (other applets, the metaserver application, > etc.) When the applet sees that enough players were available to > start tmode for a particular server, it would pop up a > notification informing the user of such, which if clicked would > launch the Netrek client. You don't the metaserver for that. Paradise has the TQ (tournament queue). When you join normally with the client, you send yourself "tq" and are removed from the galaxy into the waiting room (race selection + MOTD, but no autoquit, no kill, but can talk to all channels). The client reports players/ race in the icon title when iconized. When T starts, the client then pops up ready to go. Currently you'd need to start 1 client per server, which is not ideal, so there a meta-server solution would help ... but ... does it really pay off? How many servers are there to track that you'd like to join (by type and ping)? Having 2 clients in the background with 1u/s won't hurt (you aren't in the galaxy anyway, more isn't needed, you can only talk but not be harmed). This is on the to-do list next to "ob" to switch observser status. Might be faster to implement when copied over from Paradise than modifying meta-server. -- C Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From karthik at karthik.com Tue May 29 15:55:31 2007 From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:55:31 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: <0qmyzvdktl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qmyzvdktl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On May 23, 2007, at 10:20 PM, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > A few minutes ago, my client's metaserver display (p2k) showed 22 > players on home.clue.netrek.org This is a known bug, as a result of changes in the player counting algorithm a month or two back. I'll try to get a fix in before the next clue game. From jrd at gerdesas.com Tue May 29 16:31:41 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:31:41 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: References: <0qmyzvdktl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:55:31PM -0400, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > > This is a known bug, as a result of changes in the player counting > algorithm a month or two back. I'll try to get a fix in before the > next clue game. How very strange. I never received the original posting, only Karth's followups. Check my spam folder in the off chance it got caught there, but nadda. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070529/f03e3936/attachment.pgp From jjadeinc at hotmail.com Tue May 29 17:02:04 2007 From: jjadeinc at hotmail.com (Joe Evango) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:02:04 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: Same here. Also didn't receive the first part of the email thread ChronosWS was replying to. -Joe >From: "John R. Dennison" > > How very strange. I never received the original posting, only > Karth's followups. Check my spam folder in the off chance it > got caught there, but nadda. > _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From jrd at gerdesas.com Tue May 29 17:12:49 2007 From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 17:12:49 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: References: <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070529221249.GX5790@mail.beanhq.com> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 05:02:04PM -0500, Joe Evango wrote: > Same here. > > Also didn't receive the first part of the email thread ChronosWS was > replying to. Yay real-time. Glad to know it's not only myself affected by this. John -- "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to be put through to an engineer. "My other computer is your windows box." Ralf Hildebrandt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/attachments/20070529/bfbb6035/attachment-0001.pgp From carlos at jpl.nasa.gov Tue May 29 18:02:31 2007 From: carlos at jpl.nasa.gov (Carlos Y. Villalpando) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 16:02:31 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: <20070529221249.GX5790@mail.beanhq.com> References: <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> <20070529221249.GX5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: <20070529230231.GA2924@carlos-desktop> Quoting John R. Dennison : > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 05:02:04PM -0500, Joe Evango wrote: > > Same here. > > > > Also didn't receive the first part of the email thread ChronosWS was > > replying to. > > Yay real-time. Glad to know it's not only myself affected > by this. > You may have not noticed it. The original message was sent out a couple of weeks ago. --Carlos V. From netrek at gmail.com Tue May 29 23:06:16 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 00:06:16 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] meta bug? In-Reply-To: <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> References: <0qmyzvdktl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20070529213141.GV5790@mail.beanhq.com> Message-ID: Same here Zach On 5/29/07, John R. Dennison wrote: > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:55:31PM -0400, Karthik Arumugham wrote: > > > > This is a known bug, as a result of changes in the player counting > > algorithm a month or two back. I'll try to get a fix in before the > > next clue game. > > How very strange. I never received the original posting, only > Karth's followups. Check my spam folder in the off chance it > got caught there, but nadda. > > > > > > John > > -- > "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones." > As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to > be put through to an engineer. > > "My other computer is your windows box." > Ralf Hildebrandt > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > > > From regrado at web.de Wed May 30 10:27:16 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:27:16 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> Message-ID: <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- ChronosWS wrote on Tue 29.May'07 at 13:45:53 -0700 -= > - Eliminate any need to run multiple clients Which pays off only if you have >2 servers to track. > - Eliminate any need to jump through hoops, sending special > messages to remove you from queues - players don't need to know > this, they just want to play a game. There can always be a button added which internally sends the magic. > - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to > join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to > join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must > understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. But you have to change some stuff for either way. I don't mean to give up on your ideal solution. I'm merely suggesting that while waiting for it the other solution could be easier to put into action and cover the time until the ideal solution works, since the code is already there (in some way). -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Wed May 30 10:33:46 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:33:46 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <001501c7a2cf$e9d244f0$bd76ced0$@net> A transitional solution would certainly be fine. I just want to make sure we keep our eye on the ball :) -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Rado S Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:27 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas =- ChronosWS wrote on Tue 29.May'07 at 13:45:53 -0700 -= > - Eliminate any need to run multiple clients Which pays off only if you have >2 servers to track. > - Eliminate any need to jump through hoops, sending special > messages to remove you from queues - players don't need to know > this, they just want to play a game. There can always be a button added which internally sends the magic. > - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to > join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to > join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must > understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. But you have to change some stuff for either way. I don't mean to give up on your ideal solution. I'm merely suggesting that while waiting for it the other solution could be easier to put into action and cover the time until the ideal solution works, since the code is already there (in some way). -- C Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From mark at mark.mielke.cc Wed May 30 10:34:21 2007 From: mark at mark.mielke.cc (mark at mark.mielke.cc) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:34:21 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 05:27:16PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to > > join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to > > join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must > > understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. > But you have to change some stuff for either way. > I don't mean to give up on your ideal solution. > I'm merely suggesting that while waiting for it the other solution > could be easier to put into action and cover the time until the > ideal solution works, since the code is already there (in some way). Frankly - I'm surprised there are enough players at most times during the queue to fill *one* queue. :-) At what point is Netrek dead? :-) Cheers, mark P.S. Please don't hurt me for my blasphemy. -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ From chronosws at comcast.net Wed May 30 10:40:54 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 08:40:54 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> What I am actually interested in doing is setting up a desktop applet which can sit in the tray (on Windows) and notify you when games are ready. Supporting multiple queue would be a natural function of this applet, but it would work just as well with a single queue. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of mark at mark.mielke.cc Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:34 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 05:27:16PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to > > join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to > > join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must > > understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. > But you have to change some stuff for either way. > I don't mean to give up on your ideal solution. > I'm merely suggesting that while waiting for it the other solution > could be easier to put into action and cover the time until the > ideal solution works, since the code is already there (in some way). Frankly - I'm surprised there are enough players at most times during the queue to fill *one* queue. :-) At what point is Netrek dead? :-) Cheers, mark P.S. Please don't hurt me for my blasphemy. -- mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them... http://mark.mielke.cc/ _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev From regrado at web.de Wed May 30 13:41:19 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:41:19 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt Siegl, Bob Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins Message-ID: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Moinsen, since a generic addressing failed in the past, I hope a more personal approach gets more attention from you. I've made it as short and precise as possible from the feedback so far, so please, read and respond. Everyone else may also comment, but let's hear _all_ the owners' answers to these questions, this time _before_ answering to sub-threads (only), please! (if you happen to know that one of the listed doesn't read this generally at all, please either forward this or invite them over) If by 2 weeks no response arrives, we need to find a replacement for that resource. I'd like to have facts and preparations done before vacation begins and the momentum is forgotten again. Oh, and read all before you reply, thank you. What I want to know is: - Is this list of resources run for netrek with their owners correct and complete? - www (nexus): Dave, James - meta-server: Carlos - dev-wiki: James - SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob - SF Paradise: Dave (+ Bob Glamm, but subscribed here?) - servers: - netrek.hwy.com.au: James - continuum.us.netrek.org: James, Bob - netrek.warped.us: Bill - pickled.netrek.org: Karthik - hockey had no info, practice doesn't count now. - Do you want to act as netrek director per game type? - define standards for that game type. (majority of the type's board, 3-5 total depending on demand, the remaining members will be installed later by choice of existing directors or poll from the community, replacement formalia discusses elsewhere) - technical: code, protocol ... - game: server features, client limits ... levels: league, pickup, teaching (info-borgs) - update wiki page(s) to reflect last standing. - enforce them (maybe delegated): - control compliance by clients. (by observation as well as source when needed) - build blessed binaries of only approved clients. (separate from client writers to make control possible!) - run reference server for game type. (allow only blessed) (Note: server admins may vary features however they want, nobody else _must_ run the same server, but the reference should always be "fair" for all via client standards/ blessing and present at all times, and clearly marked as such on metas and in www, by name and position/ marks. Anything beyond the standards (like banning, censorship, ... of renegade clients/ servers) is likewise beyond the directors' rights or duties). - Will you treat all Netrek variants equally, no censoring or preference in meta-server or other resources of general service? - let the players decide what _they_ want to play, - don't deny them their fun because you want _your_ game. - players develop from "fun" to "sports" types by experience, - so in the end all benefit either way, once a critical mass is reached. (need inter-Netrek standards, also eases client coders' lives to support all types at once) - If you don't want to act as a "director" yourself, will you support the directors even if they decide with a standard against your preferences about the game? - let one director per type have an account on your systems to execute their admin job as director on behalf of the whole board. (not 1 account/director, but 1/type, except for www/ wikis or projects, where no system accounts are needed) As a guideline what I expect from the directors: to take into account that the newbie player type has changed. What in the past has been a sportman- like dedicated social games lover who'd spend the time to finish a (long) game and learn to be improve, now has become a casual short-time/ -attention-span time-killer/ fun seeker. There are still the good guys among the newbies, but it takes more time to find them, because the signal to noise ratio is lower these days, more spoiled kids from other games. Rather to stick with high-standards on entry level, I hope for a differenciated approach as mentioned above: newbie entry level, pickup level to prepare for league level. League play should then be what you veterans want to have ideally. (high-quality pickup may result as by-product, but need not, see below) If players don't want to move on, don't force them or limit them in their fun with the type and level they've chosen. Rather be happy that they've found their way and still stick with netrek in any form. This at least gives us (all netrek types) a chance that they might develop later (after maybe becoming bored of a simple/ single type). Patience please, don't expect too much at once, at least from newbie and pickup levels and all variant types: their primary objective is to provide fun for the newbies and casual gamers in the break to get them hooked, not for the veterans with their advanced gaming which they've carried over from 15+y ago! Pickup of today won't and doesn't need to be the pickup of the past. Your veterans' (sportsmen) place is league play: wait till they get through, don't invade their "fun" space. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From netrek at gmail.com Wed May 30 16:17:47 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:17:47 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> Message-ID: Netrek will never die. Zach On 5/30/07, mark at mark.mielke.cc wrote: > On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 05:27:16PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > > - Provide players with the functionality they want, which is to > > > join a game (ANY game) in the style of their liking, NOT just to > > > join a game on a particular server. As developers, we must > > > understand how to separate concerns, not expect players to do it. > > But you have to change some stuff for either way. > > I don't mean to give up on your ideal solution. > > I'm merely suggesting that while waiting for it the other solution > > could be easier to put into action and cover the time until the > > ideal solution works, since the code is already there (in some way). > > Frankly - I'm surprised there are enough players at most times during > the queue to fill *one* queue. :-) > > At what point is Netrek dead? :-) > > Cheers, > mark > > P.S. Please don't hurt me for my blasphemy. > > -- > mark at mielke.cc / markm at ncf.ca / markm at nortel.com __________________________ > . . _ ._ . . .__ . . ._. .__ . . . .__ | Neighbourhood Coder > |\/| |_| |_| |/ |_ |\/| | |_ | |/ |_ | > | | | | | \ | \ |__ . | | .|. |__ |__ | \ |__ | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada > > One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all > and in the darkness bind them... > > http://mark.mielke.cc/ > > > _______________________________________________ > netrek-dev mailing list > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev > From netrek at gmail.com Wed May 30 16:21:47 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:21:47 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt Siegl, Bob Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Rado S wrote: > - SF Paradise: Dave (+ Bob Glamm, but subscribed here?) Bob Glamm's SF.net mail alias is bouncing. Zach From netrek at gmail.com Wed May 30 16:23:24 2007 From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:23:24 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt Siegl, Bob Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: On 5/30/07, Rado S wrote: > - hockey had no info, practice doesn't count now. Michael Denison, michael at woof.tamu.edu, runs hockey.tamu.edu the primary hockey and for a while until recently the sole hockey server. Some of us are trying to get hockey games going again. Zach From quozl at us.netrek.org Wed May 30 20:05:58 2007 From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 11:05:58 +1000 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt Siegl, Bob Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins In-Reply-To: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 08:41:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > since a generic addressing failed in the past, When? Cite reference. Give link to archive. > I hope a more personal approach gets more attention from you. By putting us in the subject line? I doubt you know how to engage people's interest. > If by 2 weeks no response arrives, we need to find a replacement for > that resource. Fascinating. You would try to force our hand by setting a date and claiming you will replace us. Thanks for the vote of confidence in our services. I'm not encouraged. I take this as an attack. > I'd like to have facts and preparations done before > vacation begins What vacation is this? > - Is this list of resources run for netrek with their owners correct > and complete? No. You should review the list of resources on the Wiki. Please define "owner". Is that someone who pays the bills, provides the hosting, provides the bandwidth, purchases the equipment, or controls the policy thereof? > - www (nexus): Dave, James akb4 has been the primary maintainer of this content lately. > - meta-server: Carlos You've neglected the other metaservers. The metaservers also provide different resources with different "ownership". The resources include key list, FAQ, and active game list. > - dev-wiki: James No, this is hosted by Bob. > - SF project: Dave, Kurt, James, Carlos, Bob No, see the project definition on SF. > - servers: > - netrek.hwy.com.au: James Yes. > - continuum.us.netrek.org: James, Bob Yes. > - Do you want to act as netrek director per game type? No, but I seem to have a vote. > - run reference server for game type. > (allow only blessed) No. Client blessing is pointless, since we have not TCA. No, I see no reason to run a reference server. We have enough servers. > - Will you treat all Netrek variants equally, no censoring or > preference in meta-server or other resources of general service? No. > - let the players decide what _they_ want to play, They can set up their own servers. They have already. warped. > - If you don't want to act as a "director" yourself, will you > support the directors even if they decide with a standard against > your preferences about the game? No. > - let one director per type have an account on your systems > to execute their admin job as director on behalf of > the whole board. Certainly not. > As a guideline what I expect from the directors: to take into > account that the newbie player type has changed. Couldn't parse the following paragraph. Or the text that followed it. -- James Cameron mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to Wed May 30 20:41:24 2007 From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:41:24 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas In-Reply-To: <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> (chronosws@comcast.net's message of "Wed, 30 May 2007 08:40:54 -0700") References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> Message-ID: <0qejkx93cr.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "ChronosWS" writes: > What I am actually interested in doing is setting up a desktop applet which > can sit in the tray (on Windows) and notify you when games are ready. > Supporting multiple queue would be a natural function of this applet, but it > would work just as well with a single queue. Sounds like an excellent idea to me. From tanner at real-time.com Wed May 30 23:24:15 2007 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:24:15 -0500 Subject: [netrek-dev] Paradise server up for the curious References: <20070529172140.GK652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: Rado S wrote: > To the list-owner: Rob tried to post a similar announcement himself, > but didn't get through even though subscribed. Maybe you can clear > it up for him. > Get a bounce back? What's the source IP of the original sender? Is it in an RBL? What's the orginal senders MTA? Exchange? Configured to "understand" grey listing? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 From ahn at orion.netrek.org Thu May 31 00:36:06 2007 From: ahn at orion.netrek.org (Dave Ahn) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:36:06 -0400 Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: Dave Ahn, James Cameron, Kurt Siegl, Bob Tanner, Carlos Villalpando and server admins In-Reply-To: <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> References: <20070530184118.GE4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070531010558.GA8430@us.netrek.org> Message-ID: <20070531053606.GA9941@orion.netrek.org> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:05:58AM +1000, James Cameron wrote: > On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 08:41:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote: > > since a generic addressing failed in the past, > > When? Cite reference. Give link to archive. Is there some sort of catastrophic emergency in the Netrek community that I am not aware of? I see activity on the lists, notices of game stats for clue games, and no reports of major problems or issues that have been brought specifically to my attention (as I have stated often in the past, best direct way to reach me PRIVATELY is at ahn at romulus.netrek.org). Andrew Bressen and Joe Evango have graciously volunteered to help maintain the netrek.org home page, and I am coordinating some infrastructure related issues with them. There are some other infrastructure changes I have on my TODO list, but frankly I am rather busy at the moment, and I don't think these changes have any measurable impact on the current state of the community. If anyone has a specific concern or request regarding the netrek.org infrastructure, please feel free to contact me directly. Dave From regrado at web.de Thu May 31 06:56:10 2007 From: regrado at web.de (Rado S) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 13:56:10 +0200 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas (T notification) In-Reply-To: <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> Message-ID: <20070531115610.GG7878@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> =- ChronosWS wrote on Wed 30.May'07 at 8:40:54 -0700 -= > What I am actually interested in doing is setting up a desktop > applet which can sit in the tray (on Windows) and notify you when > games are ready. Well, can't the client itself do that, too? (at least for the server you connected to already as described before with TQ) Not having a desktop with a "tray" (only a window manager), it would be nice to still have this functionality without having to sit on windows or run an extra applet. That's why I suggested the server-side solution. > Supporting multiple queue would be a natural function of this > applet, but it would work just as well with a single queue. Yes, but see above. Typically you don't track so many servers. -- ? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. From chronosws at comcast.net Thu May 31 09:17:10 2007 From: chronosws at comcast.net (ChronosWS) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:17:10 -0700 Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas (T notification) In-Reply-To: <20070531115610.GG7878@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> References: <56C8D0AD-74DB-49B6-9CEC-381097E6F84C@karthik.com> <000301c77d44$1a1b66c0$4e523440$@net> <20070529185959.GL652@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <000401c7a232$59b6b880$0d242980$@net> <20070530152716.GC4773@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> <20070530153420.GA18609@mark.mielke.cc> <001601c7a2d0$e8fef9f0$bafcedd0$@net> <20070531115610.GG7878@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <000701c7a38e$60febfe0$22fc3fa0$@net> You could do that, but this makes it an always-on background service type notification. It would be very small, consuming almost no memory and running all the time. Likely you'd have it run on system startup and monitor the metaserver(s) and tell you when a game is ready. Thus you don't have to make an active decision to play (and possibly then wait) until you are essentially guaranteed that you really have a choice to make. The number of queues being tracked is irrelevant as the design of the system does not change. Again, the player is probably less interested in tracking a particular server than tracking the existence of T-mode on any server supporting their desired game type(s). Design for tomorrow's war (when we have many servers) not today's, especially when the cost of doing so is very low. -----Original Message----- From: netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org [mailto:netrek-dev-bounces at us.netrek.org] On Behalf Of Rado S Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 4:56 AM To: netrek-dev at us.netrek.org Subject: Re: [netrek-dev] netrek ideas (T notification) =- ChronosWS wrote on Wed 30.May'07 at 8:40:54 -0700 -= > What I am actually interested in doing is setting up a desktop > applet which can sit in the tray (on Windows) and notify you when > games are ready. Well, can't the client itself do that, too? (at least for the server you connected to already as described before with TQ) Not having a desktop with a "tray" (only a window manager), it would be nice to still have this functionality without having to sit on windows or run an extra applet. That's why I suggested the server-side solution. > Supporting multiple queue would be a natural function of this > applet, but it would work just as well with a single queue. Yes, but see above. Typically you don't track so many servers. -- C Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal! EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude. You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give. _______________________________________________ netrek-dev mailing list netrek-dev at us.netrek.org http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev