From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Sun Sep  2 02:17:10 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 03:17:10 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise server 3.1p0 client 3.3p0 released
In-Reply-To: <65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>
	(Jeffrey Watts's message of "Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:40:40 -0500")
References: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>
	<65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0qir6tedu1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


In re paradise client 3.3p0, 
is this the Ted Turner client, 
or the code base it branched from? 



From jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 03:52:13 2007
From: jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com (Jeffrey Watts)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 03:52:13 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] paradise server 3.1p0 client 3.3p0 released
In-Reply-To: <0qir6tedu1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
References: <20070828062019.GA14998@us.netrek.org>
	<65631e800708281140o1e76371bt7a55dda0c73396fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<0qir6tedu1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>
Message-ID: <65631e800709020152h299a655fn3f63b726e49999e7@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Andrew!

This is the merged Paradise 2.4 / TedTurner client.  So the answer to both
of your questions is "yes".

Jeffrey.

On 9/2/07, Andrew K. Bressen <akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to> wrote:
>
>
> In re paradise client 3.3p0,
> is this the Ted Turner client,
> or the code base it branched from?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>



-- 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 09:38:54 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:38:54 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709020738y3501a230u886d1fc25d0cdcb1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon,

Where did you get the source? I have a COW 3.0.0 source and it seems
you found one newer so I'd like to get it. Have you had to make any
changes to the Makefile and/or configure.in thus far? Are you a new
netrek player?

Zach

On 8/31/07, Jon Akers <jka at inthewings.net> wrote:
> I have run into a problem compiling the cow client on a new machine I
> have. The key input file is not found for some reason, and I was
> wondering if anyone could shed some light on this:
>
>
> checking for sdl-config... /usr/bin/sdl-config
> checking for SDL - version >= 1.2.4... yes
> checking for Mix_OpenAudio in -lSDL_mixer... yes
> configure: creating ./config.status
> config.status: creating system.mk
> config.status: error: cannot find input file: key.mk.in
> jka at kiona:~/netrek-client-cow-3.2.2$
>
>
> Now, for some background on the machine itself. This is a Lemote Fulong
> machine, which is a Chinese mips based machine that is 95% mipsel
> compatible. It is currently running a semi-stripped down version of debian.
>
> --
> Jon Akers
> jka at inthewings.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep  2 20:07:09 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:07:09 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
Message-ID: <20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>

G'day Jon,

Your build problem was caused by files missing from the .tar.gz.  The
files were in the darcs repository only.  Fixed in 3.2.3.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep  2 20:05:54 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:05:54 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] netrek-client-cow-3.2.3 released
Message-ID: <20070903010554.GA21935@us.netrek.org>

netrek-client-cow 3.2.3 was released today containing build fixes for
problems discovered since the release of 3.2.2.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/
70aca012f434116a5a6d61c7afbc8c0e  netrek-client-cow-3.2.3.tar.gz

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep  2 22:48:10 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:48:10 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] how the "director" idea started
In-Reply-To: <20070816203720.GE18473@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070701154925.GH5800@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070702060847.GF10191@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183935.GE12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095527.GF3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812155742.GG4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070814045130.GB3469@us.netrek.org>
	<20070816203720.GE18473@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070903034810.GE4369@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 10:37:21PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> ... to which of the points that you have quoted completely _below_
> your own resonse? (which I abbreviated now)

All of them.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 05:51:55 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:51:55 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
	<20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709030351v5d3ca3c6q8d68e3b17ec30a6a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/2/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> G'day Jon,
>
> Your build problem was caused by files missing from the .tar.gz.  The
> files were in the darcs repository only.  Fixed in 3.2.3.

Where can I get the COW 3.2.3 source? The latest source I've found is 3.0.0

Zach


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep  3 06:27:45 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:27:45 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709030351v5d3ca3c6q8d68e3b17ec30a6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
	<20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0709030351v5d3ca3c6q8d68e3b17ec30a6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070903112745.GB6714@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 06:51:55AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Where can I get the COW 3.2.3 source?

It was released today, and the release announcement on the mailing list
included references to the file on my web site.  In addition the file
has been uploaded to SourceForge, as per the README.releasing process.

http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/ are the list archives
in case you are losing posts to the mailing list.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 06:35:57 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 07:35:57 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <20070903112745.GB6714@us.netrek.org>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
	<20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0709030351v5d3ca3c6q8d68e3b17ec30a6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070903112745.GB6714@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709030435v62aea582r415fcf19c1872fb9@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks i see you announcement now, I've downloaded the tarball and
verified the md5sum.

Zach

On 9/3/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 06:51:55AM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > Where can I get the COW 3.2.3 source?
>
> It was released today, and the release announcement on the mailing list
> included references to the file on my web site.  In addition the file
> has been uploaded to SourceForge, as per the README.releasing process.
>
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/pipermail/netrek-dev/ are the list archives
> in case you are losing posts to the mailing list.
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>


From jka at inthewings.net  Mon Sep  3 16:04:08 2007
From: jka at inthewings.net (Jon Akers)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:04:08 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Problem compiling cow client
In-Reply-To: <20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
References: <46D840AB.8050106@inthewings.net>
	<20070903010709.GB4369@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46DC76C8.7040406@inthewings.net>

James Cameron wrote:
> G'day Jon,
>
> Your build problem was caused by files missing from the .tar.gz.  The
> files were in the darcs repository only.  Fixed in 3.2.3.
>
>   
Sweet! I just got back into netrek after a...umm... 15 year hiatus? I 
guess I just picked the wrong time to get back into it with that 
particular version.  :)

I'll get the update and go from there as soon as possible.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Thu Sep  6 12:46:25 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:46:25 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
Message-ID: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>

Hello,

Some years ago, we were holding minidrafts at the beginning of clue games, to balance them.  We did it manually and, at the time, I had begun work on some code to add infrastructure for the process.

I've lost that work, but minidrafts were mentioned the other night, and I've decided to pick it up again and see if I can't get it implemented.

Here's the general idea-- I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions or comments on the method proposed.

The general idea is that both captains agree to have a minidraft.  Then they draft from the pool of player slots.  I would like to have a play-by-play of the draft to the ALL board, so the players can follow along, although this will probably be a point of contention with some.   Once complete, the players are (automatically) traded to the appropriate team.  I hope to make use of the trade code that Karth has put in recently to do this.  After that, game starts normally.

The following commands would be Implemented:
MINIDRAFT -- both captains must request a minidraft for one to commence
DRAFT x -- a captain drafts a player
UNDRAFTED -- list undrafted slots
HOMETEAM -- list currently drafted home team
AWAYTEAM -- list currently drafted away team

Some problems I see:
-- I'm not crazy about the HOMETEAM/AWAYTEAM command names
-- What to do if slots quit during the draft?  Personally, I think this needs to be left to the captains to sort out, even if it means restarting the draft.  It's very complicated to handle even the basic cases programmatically, and a major clue shift in the slot will most likely require a re-draft anyhow.

Any comments?
Rich
(dotman)


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Sep  6 17:55:56 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:55:56 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
Message-ID: <20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org>

Sounds great.

I'd like to add that text command line interface sucks as a method, it
would be cool to have the captains enable the drafting mode, then they
sit orbiting each other at peace, and they get turns at tractoring a
player, and that player's ship is moved into position on screen, so
everyone knows the status of the draft as it is happening.

I'd be happy to work with someone on that.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 18:05:35 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:05:35 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709061605w2b94efedm46e3aec4dc98362d@mail.gmail.com>

What if a player's slot busts mid- or post- draft? Why have the draft
results on ALL? This could generate player friction and even ridicule
viz "haha you were drafted last!" etc.. Clue games were starting 30-40
minutes late until the past month or so now they start pretty much on
time, this could push back the start time.

Zach

On 9/6/07, cflrich at cfl.rr.com <cflrich at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Some years ago, we were holding minidrafts at the beginning of clue games, to balance them.  We did it manually and, at the time, I had begun work on some code to add infrastructure for the process.
>
> I've lost that work, but minidrafts were mentioned the other night, and I've decided to pick it up again and see if I can't get it implemented.
>
> Here's the general idea-- I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions or comments on the method proposed.
>
> The general idea is that both captains agree to have a minidraft.  Then they draft from the pool of player slots.  I would like to have a play-by-play of the draft to the ALL board, so the players can follow along, although this will probably be a point of contention with some.   Once complete, the players are (automatically) traded to the appropriate team.  I hope to make use of the trade code that Karth has put in recently to do this.  After that, game starts normally.
>
> The following commands would be Implemented:
> MINIDRAFT -- both captains must request a minidraft for one to commence
> DRAFT x -- a captain drafts a player
> UNDRAFTED -- list undrafted slots
> HOMETEAM -- list currently drafted home team
> AWAYTEAM -- list currently drafted away team
>
> Some problems I see:
> -- I'm not crazy about the HOMETEAM/AWAYTEAM command names
> -- What to do if slots quit during the draft?  Personally, I think this needs to be left to the captains to sort out, even if it means restarting the draft.  It's very complicated to handle even the basic cases programmatically, and a major clue shift in the slot will most likely require a re-draft anyhow.
>
> Any comments?
> Rich
> (dotman)
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Thu Sep  6 18:46:28 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:46:28 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709061605w2b94efedm46e3aec4dc98362d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<ecfa260c0709061605w2b94efedm46e3aec4dc98362d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070906234628.GS16488@mail.beanhq.com>

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 07:05:35PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> What if a player's slot busts mid- or post- draft? Why have the draft
> results on ALL? This could generate player friction and even ridicule
> viz "haha you were drafted last!" etc.. Clue games were starting 30-40
> minutes late until the past month or so now they start pretty much on
> time, this could push back the start time.

	It will not push back the start time.  One of the reasons for
	Rich wanting to do this is to reduce the amount of time it
	takes for balancing teams.

	And yes, results should go to All.  It's not as if you can't 
	watch the galactic and visually see what player is picked by
	whom and in what order.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From netrek at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 18:55:15 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:55:15 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <20070906234628.GS16488@mail.beanhq.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<ecfa260c0709061605w2b94efedm46e3aec4dc98362d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070906234628.GS16488@mail.beanhq.com>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709061655n53fd00ebw46bcdae67fbef9ea@mail.gmail.com>

You actually believe doing a full player draft and issuing 16xN of
commands is faster than each captain doing "trade foo" for a couple
players?
<BOGGLE>

Zach

On 9/6/07, John R. Dennison <jrd at gerdesas.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 07:05:35PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> > What if a player's slot busts mid- or post- draft? Why have the draft
> > results on ALL? This could generate player friction and even ridicule
> > viz "haha you were drafted last!" etc.. Clue games were starting 30-40
> > minutes late until the past month or so now they start pretty much on
> > time, this could push back the start time.
>
>         It will not push back the start time.  One of the reasons for
>         Rich wanting to do this is to reduce the amount of time it
>         takes for balancing teams.
>
>         And yes, results should go to All.  It's not as if you can't
>         watch the galactic and visually see what player is picked by
>         whom and in what order.
>
>
>
>
>                                                         John
>
> --
> "I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
> As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
> be put through to an engineer.
>
> "My other computer is your windows box."
>                                      Ralf Hildebrandt
> <sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>
>


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Thu Sep  6 22:25:58 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:25:58 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>

I agree about the command line interface, and I think the graphical idea 
is great.  I am envisioning here the player ships lined up, and when 
tractored (selected), the ship spins off to the side to join his 
teammate.  I think this is what you're describing as well. 

I suppose the question here, from a programming standpoint, is how to 
integrate INL "commands", which are controlled by the inl robot, in a 
way that they can affect ship position, etc, controlled by ntserv, in a 
way that makes sense.

It's almost like the minidraft process would need to be built into 
ntserv, perhaps as a mode that the inl robot invokes.  I've been looking 
at conquer.c for ideas.

Admittedly (as I'm sure I've just made quite apparent) I'm not nearly as 
familiar with the code as the rest of you, so I'll be digging through it 
for the next few days.  I'd like to make this happen. 

Rich

James Cameron wrote:
> Sounds great.
>
> I'd like to add that text command line interface sucks as a method, it
> would be cool to have the captains enable the drafting mode, then they
> sit orbiting each other at peace, and they get turns at tractoring a
> player, and that player's ship is moved into position on screen, so
> everyone knows the status of the draft as it is happening.
>
> I'd be happy to work with someone on that.
>
>   



From jrd at gerdesas.com  Thu Sep  6 20:09:37 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:09:37 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709061655n53fd00ebw46bcdae67fbef9ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<ecfa260c0709061605w2b94efedm46e3aec4dc98362d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070906234628.GS16488@mail.beanhq.com>
	<ecfa260c0709061655n53fd00ebw46bcdae67fbef9ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070907010937.GT16488@mail.beanhq.com>

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 07:55:15PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> You actually believe doing a full player draft and issuing 16xN of
> commands is faster than each captain doing "trade foo" for a couple
> players?

	Yes.

> <BOGGLE>

	Don't play boggle, don't much care for it.




						John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From karthik at karthik.com  Thu Sep  6 20:28:04 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:28:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
Message-ID: <D927B11F-7BFD-470C-88B1-A7CD945412F2@karthik.com>

This is a very good idea that has been hanging around too long  
without any implementation. I'm glad that you have decided to put  
time into making it happen.

I'll provide what help I can, but I'm very busy at the moment.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Sep  6 20:38:45 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:38:45 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 08:25:58PM -0700, Rich Hansen wrote:
> I suppose the question here, from a programming standpoint, is how to 
> integrate INL "commands", which are controlled by the inl robot, in a 
> way that they can affect ship position, etc, controlled by ntserv, in a 
> way that makes sense.

Well, there's a simple way, and a complex way.

The simple way might be for the INL robot to pause the game, and do all
the ship position updates itself.

The complex way might be to add a flag for "ship navigation being
controlled by a supervisory process" which would cause player navigation
actions to be ignored, and then transwarp or fly it into position, with
the daemon animating the navigation.

(p.s. we've nearly run out of p_flags bits, so I propose a p_inldraft
variable after p_inlcaptain in struct players.)

You are right that conquer.c has some such ideas present.  But the
conquest gloat parade pauses the game, and then animates ship and plasma
positions during the parade period.  But once you understand how it
works, you'll be able to figure out how to do anything like it.  ;-)

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Sep  6 21:18:24 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:18:24 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org>

How is this for a navigational interlock ...

/* INL draft states for p_inl_draft */
#define INL_DRAFT_OFF            0 /* not involved */
#define INL_DRAFT_MOVING_TO_POOL 1 /* in transit to pool */
#define INL_DRAFT_POOLED         2 /* in pool of players to be chosen */
#define INL_DRAFT_MOVING_TO_TEAM 3 /* has been chosen, in transit to team */
#define INL_DRAFT_TEAMED         4 /* has been chosen by a captain */

During a draft, no speed may be set.

During a move, no direction may be set.  This helps prevent interference
with the navigation to the pool or team galactic area.

Therefore while pooled or in a team, the ships may fiddle with their
shields and rotate to indicate they are present.

I envisage the ships all on the tactical and all safe from damage.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Sep  7 01:09:46 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:09:46 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org>
	<46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>	<20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
	<20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>

Well, that's awesome, as well as a great guide on where to look to see 
where speed, direction, and everything else is set. I think we should 
disable weapons as well-- don't want the draft area filled with a bunch 
of phaser lines (like during an INL pause).  Not sure where to do this.

Team Captains will still need their tractors to draft a player, maybe 
modify interface.c as at the end of this email?  Or would the captains 
simply always have a flag of INL_DRAFT_OFF, enabling movement?

I would propose an additional (albeit slightly redundant) flag 
INL_DRAFT_CAPTAIN, as we may want to confine their movement to some 
middling ground during the draft process, and could use this do it.

Of course, we could also simply do comparisons to p_inlcaptain, but I'm 
not sure that's in the spirit of the p_inl_draft variable.

Nice!
Rich


Near Line 307 in interface.c:
===
void tractor_player(int player)
{
    struct player *victim;

+    if (me->p_inl_draft != INL_DRAFT_OFF) 
+	if (me->p_inlcaptain != 1) 
+	  return;

    if (weaponsallowed[WP_TRACTOR]==0) {
    return;
===

Not sure how that would be implemented just yet.

James Cameron wrote:
> How is this for a navigational interlock ...
>
> /* INL draft states for p_inl_draft */
> #define INL_DRAFT_OFF            0 /* not involved */
> #define INL_DRAFT_MOVING_TO_POOL 1 /* in transit to pool */
> #define INL_DRAFT_POOLED         2 /* in pool of players to be chosen */
> #define INL_DRAFT_MOVING_TO_TEAM 3 /* has been chosen, in transit to team */
> #define INL_DRAFT_TEAMED         4 /* has been chosen by a captain */
>
> During a draft, no speed may be set.
>
> During a move, no direction may be set.  This helps prevent interference
> with the navigation to the pool or team galactic area.
>
> Therefore while pooled or in a team, the ships may fiddle with their
> shields and rotate to indicate they are present.
>
> I envisage the ships all on the tactical and all safe from damage.
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Thu Sep  6 23:22:55 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:22:55 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
	<20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070907042255.GD5021@us.netrek.org>

Yeah, good point, so I'd added a check to is_idle() to return true for
any player not in INL_DRAFT_OFF.

Added INL_DRAFT_CAPTAIN as well, yes it is redundant, but it simplifies
the logic significantly.

If a captain locks or tractors a player, they are selected.  If a
captain pressors a player, they are deselected.  I'll worry later on
about how these are implemented, and whether a deselect needs to be
approved by the other captain.

Revised patch attached.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Sep  7 02:24:45 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:24:45 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
	<20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070907072444.GE5021@us.netrek.org>

Several patches pushed to my repository.

  * inl draft, restrict navigation and add hooks
  * fix formatting and return syntax
  * inl draft, add task specific sources
  * inl draft, add structures and constants
  * use hex values for gameup flags

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Sep  7 08:21:08 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:21:08 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <20070907072444.GE5021@us.netrek.org>
References: <9814578.1139181189100785150.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web11-z02>
	<20070906225556.GA5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0C4C6.50103@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070907013845.GB5021@us.netrek.org>
	<20070907021824.GC5021@us.netrek.org> <46E0EB2A.7040706@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070907072444.GE5021@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070907132108.GA2060@us.netrek.org>

And another couple of patches, totally untested ...

  * replace p_inlcaptain with p_inl_captain
  * inl draft, animation and pick logic (ntserv/draft.c)

Not in mail, but in repository.

This completes the basic animation outline, and the picking of players
from the pool by the captains, what remains is the INL vote to start it
all off, the check for empty pool to terminate, and play testing.  It is
bound to be rough around the edges.  More when I get a chance.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Fri Sep  7 12:52:38 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:52:38 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
Message-ID: <5183085.85351189187558467.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z02>

Nice.

I've got the code written for the vote to minidraft procedure, lifted mostly from do_start().  Which brings up a practical question-- where can I put code that I've modified?

When I get off work here I'm going to get moving on some of the todos in draft.c, looks nice!  I had a different arrangement for the players in my head during the draft, I'm wondering if the current layout would make it more difficult to grab the right player.

In the trivialities column, I thought it would be neat if, when a player is drafted, a little ring (of plasmas? reminiscent of conquer.c) circled around them, indicating the selection, then the player spun off over towards their location on their new team (not sure how to do this just yet, maybe set them at w 20 to the new location and spin their heading around, counting on the momentum to carry them to the correct location).

Gonna take a look at some of that in a few hours.  If you keep this pace, James, there's going to be no coding left! :-)

Rich
---- James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote: 
> And another couple of patches, totally untested ...
> 
>   * replace p_inlcaptain with p_inl_captain
>   * inl draft, animation and pick logic (ntserv/draft.c)
> 
> Not in mail, but in repository.
> 
> This completes the basic animation outline, and the picking of players
> from the pool by the captains, what remains is the INL vote to start it
> all off, the check for empty pool to terminate, and play testing.  It is
> bound to be rough around the edges.  More when I get a chance.
> 
> -- 
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Fri Sep  7 13:41:11 2007
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:41:11 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] Colinux image of vanilla server (debian)
	created/running on WinXp
Message-ID: <20070907184112.070281BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com>

Folks,

I created a colinux image that runs the debian build of netrek-server-vanilla for the windows platform. Colinux (Cooperative Linux) is an open source method for running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively, similar (in ways)?to vmware/xen (http://www.xensource.com/Pages/default.aspx). The image is 349MB install of debian-40r1-i386-businesscard.iso, running "Linux debian 2.6.11-co-0.6.4 #1 Mon Jun 19 05:36:13 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux". I am still troubleshooting some basic image set up issues, but otherwise the server works well, and would be useful for someone wanting to run current versions of the netrek server on Windows platforms supported by Colinux.

-bd

Notes: After adding quozl.linux.org.au/netrek to sources.list and apt-get insgall netrek-server-vanilla, running the server and connecting with a client first reported, "ntserv: error while loading shared libraries: libmp.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory". This can probably be fixed by adding libgmp3 to the package dependency list.

-- 
We've Got Your Name @ www.mail.com!!!
Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Sep  7 17:49:01 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 08:49:01 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <5183085.85351189187558467.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z02>
References: <5183085.85351189187558467.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z02>
Message-ID: <20070907224901.GA4002@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:52:38PM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> Which brings up a practical question-- where can I put code that I've
> modified?

If you can't do anything else, send the files to me.

If you can run diff, then keep a copy of the files I sent in one
directory, and run "diff -ru old-directory new-directory" and send me
the output.

But by far the best thing is for you to run darcs.

1.  install darcs,

2.  run "darcs get http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-server/"

3.  make your changes in netrek-server/

4.  run "darcs add" for any new files you create,

5.  once a batch of changes is ready, run "darcs record" to
interactively choose which changes to batch,

6.  send me the batch with either "darcs send", or push your whole
directory into a web folder, test that you can "darcs get
http://dude.example.com/path/to/repo" and publish here the URL,

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Fri Sep  7 18:00:13 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:00:13 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Code
In-Reply-To: <5183085.85351189187558467.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z02>
References: <5183085.85351189187558467.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z02>
Message-ID: <20070907230013.GB4002@us.netrek.org>

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:52:38PM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> I had a different arrangement for the players in my head during the
> draft, I'm wondering if the current layout would make it more
> difficult to grab the right player.

Layout of the pool isn't something I wish to worry about.  I've isolated
the positioning functions for that, so please hack into it.  It
certainly depends on how the captains operate.

(I've also thought of "leaning" the pool players up or down according to
whether the pool players locked onto a captain.  This would provide a
non-verbal clue that is normally present in face to face drafting.  The
frown that says "pick me and I'll carp all over your bass.")

> In the trivialities column, I thought it would be neat if, when a
> player is drafted, a little ring (of plasmas? reminiscent of
> conquer.c) circled around them, indicating the selection, then the
> player spun off over towards their location on their new team (not
> sure how to do this just yet, maybe set them at w 20 to the new
> location and spin their heading around, counting on the momentum to
> carry them to the correct location).

Sounds good.  The logic must be simple though, so that we don't end up
dumping core and causing disgust.

Remember that I'm allowing set course, shields, torps, and phasers, for
body-language.  Plasma would be rare, and so using them for this could
be good.  Think of a lasoo (sp?).

> Gonna take a look at some of that in a few hours.  If you keep this
> pace, James, there's going to be no coding left! :-)

9am for me now, but I'm going out.  Saturday morning.  You have some
time to hack.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 05:18:39 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 12:18:39 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] James dictator != James director?!
In-Reply-To: <20070828000505.GA5367@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716183918.GD12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718095337.GE3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812152651.GC4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070828000505.GA5367@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070908101839.GB14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Tue 28.Aug'07 at 10:05:06 +1000 -=

> I expect this closes your issue with my level of involvement?

Actually, I had your answers long time ago, but you kept asking new
questions... and responding to what you have had answered before,
but giving differing answers.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 05:17:35 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 12:17:35 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] RSA future
In-Reply-To: <20070829031940.GA3694@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070829031940.GA3694@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070908101735.GA14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Wed 29.Aug'07 at 13:19:40 +1000 -=

> > To which you said "let's have it", but later "I won't do it nor
> > surrender to/ support it".
> > {...}
> >  won't do yourself, but neither let others?
> 
> I agree.

Hmm, why do you give contradictory answers?

> > I prefer to have "noise" (in the sense of public official
> > announcements) by a well defined leadership rather than by some
> > random, small, occasionally irrational mob.
> 
> Chuckle. This is a mailing list, not a parliamentary senate.

Use whatever analogy you prefer, but with every game you need
somebody to define the rules, be they explicit and strict or vague
and loose.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 05:19:44 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 12:19:44 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Call for feedback from: James Cameron (sf)
In-Reply-To: <20070831041759.GA4085@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070617132312.GE4720@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070617230739.GA4664@us.netrek.org>
	<20070619194339.GI21040@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070620000202.GA4060@us.netrek.org>
	<20070716183818.GC12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718094543.GD3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812151526.GA4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070822000052.GC3749@us.netrek.org>
	<20070822184508.GB15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070831041759.GA4085@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070908101944.GC14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- James Cameron wrote on Fri 31.Aug'07 at 14:18:00 +1000 -=

> On Wed, Aug 22, 2007 at 08:45:08PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > But the admins have the final say.
> > Or what for is the differentiation between admins and non-admins?
> 
> The only thing admins seem to be able to do that non-admins cannot
> is change the services provided to the project by SourceForge.

Quoting SF docs:
http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=30513&group_id=1

------ QUOTE BEGIN ------
	"Project administrators can speak for the project ..."
	"... coordinating support for your userbase"
------- QUOTE END -------

Being admin then means more in the sense I've been asking for, not
mere technicians as every non-admin is (or prefers to be).

> > Why not make everyone admins then?
> 
> Please read the SourceForge documentation. It's not for me to
> explain it to you.

There is no reference to this in that page.
If you know a link, please provide it.
Without explicit advice against, it's up to the admins to decide who
and how many admins to have or what for.

> I don't see this as a change of subject, and I know that some
> readers are using thread killing.

Hmm, there are better ways...

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 06:48:26 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:48:26 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <20070824231202.GA21960@orion.netrek.org>
References: <BAY113-F234D326B3979E4421E0C0BCBD40@phx.gbl>
	<46CB5230.1030406@mark.mielke.cc>
	<20070824204119.GG13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070824231202.GA21960@orion.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070908114826.GD14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Dave Ahn wrote on Fri 24.Aug'07 at 19:12:02 -0400 -=

> On Fri, Aug 24, 2007 at 10:41:19PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> > They are refusing to do what is needed for "fairness" per
> > response to Joe.
> 
> A lack of response does not mean a lack of interest nor does it
> mean refusal.

Right, sorry, I thought I had clarified elsewhere ("hanging
process") that it implies this:
"they are not doing what _I consider_ needed".
Namely faster or any response at all, independent of the original
issue. I'm sorry for the bad timing that you were already running
and I was about to run out of time, and therefore pressed for it.

> Perhaps not everyone agrees with your definition of what is
> "needed" for this community.

Definitely they don't, so I had to ask to figure out.

Also it was to figure out who to listen to, or who wants to say
something on what is needed or positively declined. There have been
others mentioning this issue before me, so I thought there would
have been _some_ others willing to do something about it.

I assumed you and the other admins of the core resources were the
ones to have a say 1st before running into/over you(r resources or
interests) though.

Now I know.

> "Fairness" is a moving target, and the foundation for it has
> always been the leagues (or clue games, if you will). If this
> answer doesn't make sense or seems deficient, {...}

It does... but the leagues are gone, ... does this mean it's
irrelevant for pickup games (or whatever is left after the leagues)?
I'd like to have "fair" clue and pickup games, too, if I knew what
"fair" means with regard to client features and whose standards count.

> The scope and intent of RES-RSA has never been as broad as is
> being assumed or claimed by some of the people on this list.

Hmm... that's mostly me then, ... I'd like to improve on it.
 If you know of URLs or keywords to search for (more than already
given), please let me know.
I only found threads that cover the technical aspects of RSA, not the
motivation, scope, intent with it.
(like http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.netrek/browse_thread/thread/df1ac75895e86d99/0f093411917fecb0
and http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/jch/netrek/rsa
 ~15y ago, wow, getting old ;).

But given even that, it _seems_ like what I've been looking for at
least for the technical aspect; it would just need to be applied
more consequently and systematically (social aspect as laid out in
the threads' starters).

> On an earlier post, you asked:
> > How can we help you? (other than being patient)
> 
> Plenty of people in this community seem to be contributing very
> positively with little to no interaction with me,
> {...}
> Netrek is not the same as it was, and it shouldn't be. It is up to
> the current active community to define the game and sustain it.

I prefer to ask who I presume responsible before acting against
their interests when I'm not sure about it.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 07:02:47 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:02:47 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] VMware or Qemu image of Netrek Server Vanilla 2.12.1
Message-ID: <20070908120247.GA20370@us.netrek.org>

I've written up the process to create a Debian based virtual appliance
for a Netrek Server, placing it in docs/README.debian-virtual-appliance
in my repository, and attached.

Unlike the previous post, this image is a mere 127Mb.  ;-)

One based on OpenWrt x86 should be about 3Mb.  There's a lot of cruft in
a standard Debian install.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
-------------- next part --------------
# HOWTO build a Debian based Netrek Server virtual appliance
# by James Cameron, 2007-09-08
#
# input: Debian netinst installation media, internet access.
#
# output: virtual appliance that runs a netrek server in bronco mode,
# suitable for use by qemu, vmware, etc.

qemu-img create -f vmdk debian-etch.vmdk 400M

# build etch system from installation media
# TODO: use /usr/sbin/qemu-make-debian-root instead
qemu -hda debian-etch.vmdk -boot d -cdrom /dev/hda
# root password netrek

# reboot after installation
qemu -hda debian-etch.vmdk -boot c -cdrom /dev/hda -redir tcp:8022::22

# install ssh for further access
apt-get update
apt-get install ssh

# build a netrek virtual appliance using the debian system as input
cp debian-etch.vmdk netrek-server.vmdk
qemu -hda netrek-server.vmdk -boot c -cdrom /dev/hda -redir tcp:8022::22

# local shell customisation, set your proxy server here, optional
export http_proxy=http://10.0.0.1:3128/

# reduce grub boot timer from five seconds to zero seconds
sed 's/timeout\t\t5/timeout\t\t0/' < /boot/grub/menu.lst > /tmp/menu.lst && \
mv /tmp/menu.lst /boot/grub/menu.lst

# install the netrek server package
echo "deb http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek ./" >> /etc/apt/sources.list
apt-get update
apt-get install netrek-server-vanilla

# add missing dependency
apt-get install libgmp3c2

# configure netrek server to start on boot
update-rc.d netrek-server-vanilla defaults

# trim back packages installed
apt-get remove --purge \
traceroute manpages usbutils acpid acpi info eject libsasl2 iptables \
installation-report netcat wget man-db groff-base dselect nano tasksel \
tasksel-data aptitude apt-utils console-common console-data console-tools \
libdb4.4 libsigc++-2.0-0c2a libconsole dmidecode
# TODO: find other packages to remove, to cut down the space used

# clean up
apt-get clean

poweroff

# test boot the netrek server appliance
qemu -hda netrek-server.vmdk -boot c -cdrom /dev/hda -redir tcp:8952::2592 -snapshot

# compress the appliance
cp netrek-server.vmdk netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1-appliance.vmdk
pbzip2 -v9 netrek-server-vanilla-2.12.1-appliance.vmdk
# total 127Mb

From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 09:27:36 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:27:36 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] What happens?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0708262006280.10138@shaka.acc.umu.se>
References: <20070821174031.GA2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-F20FB41C80A422ABC100D19CBD40@phx.gbl>
	<20070821193954.GD2239@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708221238330.24503@shaka.acc.umu.se>
	<20070824204112.GF13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0708262006280.10138@shaka.acc.umu.se>
Message-ID: <20070908142735.GE14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin, re-ordered quotes by relevance, so you can quit early.

=- Niclas Fredriksson wrote on Sun 26.Aug'07 at 20:14:47 +0200 -=

> {...}
> This is the last time I will give you hints on this.

Thank you for your patience and goodwill despite the suffering you
had to endure.

> I don't see you doing anything but making a lot of people read and
> type a lot on this mailing list.

If you see no good in reading and typing a lot on this list, ignore
threads with my posts. I can't promise to stay within some
XYZ-lines/ response limit.
I'd have welcomed more comments from a wider range of people, not
always the same few, so it would have been less/person and overall
more participation.
 See also response to Jeffrey (as last episode).


"Formal" issues:

> {...}
> You should focus on staying to the key issue of the post and not
> write excessive information like the one above.

"excessive" is relative.

Please forgive me that my clarification for you on the "train of
thought" exceeds 2 lines: take it as an example case for all when the
initially simple statement full of implicit background info doesn't
suffice because it isn't obvious to everyone, so it goes back and
forth.
 POV isn't the same for all; the obvious isn't always obvious to all.
 If everyone shared all info, nobody would ever have to clarify
anything.
 But we aren't there yet, or are all but me?

> {...}
> Your problem is you seem to feel like you have to comment on
> exactly everything someone writes in a post, so your posts will
> grow exponentially as the thread gets bigger.

I don't comment on everything... only what's gone wrong on the other
side or is unclear to me, and only with stuff that I started,
because I care for it and clean up behind me when I mess up.
 Unfortunately in this case a lot has gone wrong. And trying to fix
it made it worse, because then some begin to complain about the
volume or style, and when responding to that, even that is
complained about per previous quote and this one. I can't suit
all at once: those needing more detail and those wanting no more.
 Who to sacrifice? :(



"Subject" issues:

> >> There has never been and probably will never be a need for the
> >> netrek community to be as defined as the leadership of a
> >> country.
> > 
> > So I should safely ignore any and all "borg" complaints? If I'm
> > not mistaken, even you once in a while used that word.
> 
> I don't follow your train of thought here.

Complaints about "borg" have been rising once in a while in the
past and in particular recently when ideas about how to make netrek
more attractive to newbies by changing gameplay or client features.
 Are those complaints irrelevant and we should simply change things?
If not, such a "leadership" would be required then.
Otherwise if it's up to "the crowd", there will again be pulling in
all directions or by too few individuals, eventually getting nowhere.

Compare it to football: nearly 2 dozen rough guys going at each
other, but all of them paying attention not to break the rules to
avoid penalties. Referees would keep both changers and keepers clear
which way to go, despite their opposite desires to cross limits.

> Anyone in the netrek community can answer your questions about
> borgs. However some might argue that only the key holder's or
> server gods' opinions actually hold any weight though.

But that's exactly the problem: those who could provide authorative
answers don't want to, and those who do aren't authorative (i.e.
sitting on the buttons to approve/ deny changes).
How to deal with that dilemma?

> > How would you know that somebody has dropped out or changed mind
> > when there is little overall activity and publicity left?
> 
> There is no need to know exactly who's been doing any active work
> in, say, the past month in the netrek council. It's not a paid job
> and these people will do what they can when they can.

Maybe we use different meanings for "work" here.
Having an opinion about whether a "_the_ netrek game" exists or what
it is doesn't mean work to me. The opinion alone doesn't require to
spend much own time on it, only to make decisions in favour of or
against it, and then possibly have others do the real work behind it.
 Changing mind then is easy and can easily go unnoticed.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From regrado at web.de  Sat Sep  8 09:30:03 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:30:03 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Campaigning secrets
In-Reply-To: <65631e800708241536y47bac10aw58d61111f010438c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070822193947.GC15719@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<BAY113-DAV1440720F168ADAE6DF1AABCBD60@phx.gbl>
	<20070824204439.GJ13799@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<65631e800708241536y47bac10aw58d61111f010438c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070908143002.GF14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

Moin, here, too, re-ordered by relevance.

=- Jeffrey Watts wrote on Fri 24.Aug'07 at 17:36:14 -0500 -=

> In fact, what I keep seeing is person after person responding to
> the effect of "I'm not going to talk to you any more".
> {...}
> You have to come to them, you can't expect them to come to you.

It's a pity, I thought I had.
How else should I have done it?

> They don't agree with you, you're not happy with that.

Hum... you're wrong there (as so many others).
I have my answers now, that's all I've been looking for.
A "borg-control" system would have been nice bonus, but I don't need
that personally.
I only needed clarification on how to deal with the term or what
people _really_ want to do about it beyond complaining.

> Contribute on the Paradise side.
> {...} and stop harassing the Bronco/Sturgeon guys about stuff that
> has nothing to do with your efforts.

My efforts were not limited to Paradise alone, since I don't see
it isolated. And I like to play Bronco, too, even though I 
prefer others.
 Even if I were the most active Paradiser in all regards, this
wouldn't affect the questions about Bronco alone. Paradise is just 1
client among others (in the past or to come).

> I think you ought to contribute before calling for changes.
> This is a meritocracy, not a cheerocracy.
> {...} To clarify, in a meritocracy people respect those that add
> more than just talk.
> {...} Given that you've only been talking and haven't really added
> much to the general effort, {...}

*sigh*

That would be which?
As I see it, what I've been looking for needs exactly this talking,
since they're social tasks rather than technical ones.

I wasn't cheering, but asking and responding, before I would have
had tried things that could have provided merit (or possibly harm).
In unclear terrain I ask first, then shoot.
Both, to avoid damage _and_ ask for help, especially when a task
can't be done by 1 alone.

> People in Open Source projects don't want feedback from people who
> have no stake.
> {...} your ideas and concerns {...} is of no concern to anyone
> here, as you haven't earned any credibility in the community.

So (new) ideas have to wait for some probing time of the submitter
in another field before they have a chance to make it through?

What kind of stake/ credibility is required for the addressed
issue(s)? It's not like I was the 1st to raise them: I just
addressed them more explicitely or offered solutions.

It doesn't mean necessarily that a quality in field A qualifies you
automatically for field B. And there are cases where somebody can
contribute more to B (which is discussed) than A (which everybody is
used to look at exclusively but not relevant now).

> {...} your frequent and voluminous responses aren't helping
> anyone, and are only serving to alienate others from yourself.
> {...} or react with hostility whenever you call out for drastic
> changes.
> {...} Stop with your arguing, everyone is done with these droll,
> circuitous, and tedious discussions.

I've understood that, I knew before that would happen, I also hoped
to produce some boost in participation by those "drastic" changes.
- I started simple.
- nobody was forced to read or answer, everyone could ignore
	subjects not interested in (or any posts from me).
- those who've read or responded have spent time to participate with
	reasonable questions or wrong conclusions.
- I assumed they deserved adequate responses to the best of my
	ability to make it as short as possible while as detailed
	as necessary.

Didn't they deserve it?

- If somebody saw circuits, my (unwanted) delays gave time to step in
	to resolve them to avoid reiterations, nobody did.

For those who participated, I'm sorry that I've run out of time and
it resulted in batch form, so that everyone had to take it in doses
of own judgement rather than spread among smaller pieces.

I was trying to suit all, but my preference was to suit those
participating actively.
 I couldn't do better at that time.

> I'd like to have further discussions with you Rado, but keep in
> mind that I am busy with many other things in my life and if you
> keep arguing incessantly on these mailing lists I'll be forced to
> not interact with you.

Heh... why do you think it's different for me?
If I hadn't been too busy, I'd have responded more recipient-friendly.
What I started I have to finish ... somehow, be it success or
failure, but without just stopping to respond. I don't forfeit when
I'm willing to commit myself and only few _real_ opportunities appear.

In the past years conditions weren't matching to get me started to
finally do something again, now there was: I had some time left over
and some background activity generally in netrek, this time
promising enough to try.
I started this at the beginning of this year when I still had time
to do something before I wouldn't have it anymore (now).

Because it was a rare opportunity I tried pushing it hard.
Too hard obviously. Sorry.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sat Sep  8 10:06:08 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:06:08 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
Message-ID: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>

Well, I've managed to get a debian installation up, pull code from James' repository via darcs, and even send a patch.  Yahoo!

I've implemented a minidraft request as a request by the captains, as opposed to a vote from all players, as I feel this is more in keeping with the INL captain structure.  Let me know if you think differently.

Also, I'm thinking that, in the name of simplicity for now, draft selectors will correspond to the INL captains (ie, no two draft selectors from the same team).  Maybe change this in the future, but it simplifies things now, and its a simple matter to trade to another team and become captain, etc, if need be.  

Anyways, onward and onforth to player positioning and animation.  As always, input is welcome.  

Rich


From netrek at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 13:24:23 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:24:23 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709081124qab8d5aai227c80c53c8811c7@mail.gmail.com>

How is this draft going to save time? Right now people join teams, and
in the worst case each captain must do a few commands of "trade
<foo>". I don't see how that is going to take longer than drafting 16
slots!

Zach

On 9/8/07, cflrich at cfl.rr.com <cflrich at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Well, I've managed to get a debian installation up, pull code from James' repository via darcs, and even send a patch.  Yahoo!
>
> I've implemented a minidraft request as a request by the captains, as opposed to a vote from all players, as I feel this is more in keeping with the INL captain structure.  Let me know if you think differently.
>
> Also, I'm thinking that, in the name of simplicity for now, draft selectors will correspond to the INL captains (ie, no two draft selectors from the same team).  Maybe change this in the future, but it simplifies things now, and its a simple matter to trade to another team and become captain, etc, if need be.
>
> Anyways, onward and onforth to player positioning and animation.  As always, input is welcome.
>
> Rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Sat Sep  8 13:50:30 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:50:30 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709081124qab8d5aai227c80c53c8811c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<ecfa260c0709081124qab8d5aai227c80c53c8811c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070908185030.GB16488@mail.beanhq.com>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 02:24:23PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> How is this draft going to save time? Right now people join teams, and
> in the worst case each captain must do a few commands of "trade
> <foo>". I don't see how that is going to take longer than drafting 16
> slots!

	Please stop questioning and complaining about contributed
	works.  It has been pointed out to you that this is a process
	that must be decided upon by both captains.  

	You are rarely present and playing at clue games, Zach, so
	I do not believe you understand the amount of time it can
	sometimes take to balance.

	There are also those that are not ready for clue games yet
	read enough to be able to pass the clue check - a mini draft
	will help weed these people out, assuming the captains are
	aware enough of players abilities.  It will also help weed
	out anonytwinking (semi) clues that might upset the balance.

	As the person currently calling the weekly games I welcome this
	change.  Let's give it a try.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
-------------- next part --------------
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 20:06:43 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:06:43 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709081124qab8d5aai227c80c53c8811c7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<ecfa260c0709081124qab8d5aai227c80c53c8811c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070909010643.GB6995@us.netrek.org>

G'day Zach,

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 02:24:23PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> How is this draft going to save time?

Wait until it is programmed and then measure the time saved, if time
saving is so important to you.  For me, time saving is not important.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 20:14:30 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:14:30 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
Message-ID: <20070909011430.GC6995@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 11:06:08AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> Well, I've managed to get a debian installation up, pull code from
> James' repository via darcs, and even send a patch.  Yahoo!

I haven't seen a darcs patch from you yet.  I wonder if something is
wrong.  Perhaps your Debian installation hasn't got a way to transport
mail off-system.  If so, workarounds are either:

1.  manual resend, type "darcs send --output=file.darcs" and then attach
file.darcs to an e-mail to me or the list,

2.  publish a separate repo, on a web server account type "darcs get
http://james.tooraweenah.com/darcs/netrek-server/" then do a "darcs
push" to it from your development repository, e.g. "darcs push
user at www.example.com:/home/user/public_html/netrek-server", or

3.  publish your development repo, make it accessible via HTTP,

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 20:22:30 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:22:30 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
Message-ID: <20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 11:06:08AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> I've implemented a minidraft request as a request by the captains, as
> opposed to a vote from all players, as I feel this is more in keeping
> with the INL captain structure.  Let me know if you think differently.

I certainly think it is up to the captains.  A popular vote isn't
appropriate.

> Also, I'm thinking that, in the name of simplicity for now, draft
> selectors will correspond to the INL captains (ie, no two draft
> selectors from the same team).

Ok.  One option coded in my head but not in a text file is for the
captain to delegate to a selector, using the following sequence:

- captain picks their selector from the unpicked player pool, by using
  the lock or tractor keys,

- selector is moved by the server to the captain's team pick list,

- captain locks on their selector, and as a result the selector and the
  captain swap roles and positions on screen,

But this is an optional nicety.

Imagine the social dynamics of it ... a captain who is a game organiser
type rather than a strategic expert might pick the best strategist from
the pool, then delegate to them the picking of the fighters the
strategist wants to work with.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sat Sep  8 23:51:46 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:51:46 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>

Hello,

James Cameron wrote:
>> Also, I'm thinking that, in the name of simplicity for now, draft
>> selectors will correspond to the INL captains (ie, no two draft
>> selectors from the same team).
>>     
>
> Ok.  One option coded in my head but not in a text file is for the
> captain to delegate to a selector, using the following sequence:
>
> - captain picks their selector from the unpicked player pool, by using
>   the lock or tractor keys,
>
> - selector is moved by the server to the captain's team pick list,
>
> - captain locks on their selector, and as a result the selector and the
>   captain swap roles and positions on screen,
>
> But this is an optional nicety.
>
> Imagine the social dynamics of it ... a captain who is a game organiser
> type rather than a strategic expert might pick the best strategist from
> the pool, then delegate to them the picking of the fighters the
> strategist wants to work with.
>
>   
I think its a good idea.  People clamor for it, and the case espoused in 
the last paragraph there is fairly common.  Hell, just last week, there 
were no clues on the Rom side who were either able or willing to captain 
and balance, whereas the Fed side had several players who are good at 
just that.  But, this is, of course, something we can add in when we get 
the groundwork up.  I'm beginning to feel like we're going to need some 
kind of minidraft struct, to hold players and selectors and such, if we 
want to accomplish either of the following:

-- Selector who isn't INL captain
-- Arrange player pools or picks other than by player number

But I'm hesitant to add new structures to the code yet (not familiar 
enough with it). 

Rich

PS Is this nitty-gritty technical type stuff inappropriate for the list 
at large?  Should I take it off list?  It certainly seems relevant to 
me, but I'm in the thick of it.



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 21:13:53 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:13:53 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org> <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070909021353.GB15269@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 09:51:46PM -0700, Rich Hansen wrote:
> I'm beginning to feel like we're going to need some kind of minidraft
> struct, to hold players and selectors and such, if we want to
> accomplish either of the following:
> 
> -- Selector who isn't INL captain

INL_DRAFT_PICKED_SELECTOR

> -- Arrange player pools or picks other than by player number

Pick order.  int p_inl_pick_sequence in player struct, which is set from
a pick counter held in static storage in the draft.c module.

> But I'm hesitant to add new structures to the code yet (not familiar 
> enough with it). 

I'll add the above.

> PS Is this nitty-gritty technical type stuff inappropriate for the list 
> at large?

Yes.  There is another mailing list for discussions about Netrek in
general.  This list we are using now is for development of Netrek,
including source changes, infrastructure changes, and perceptions of
policy creation.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 21:20:42 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:20:42 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20070909021353.GB15269@us.netrek.org>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org> <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070909021353.GB15269@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <20070909022042.GC15269@us.netrek.org>

Patch pushed, if you're using darcs then do a "darcs pull" in the
repository,

  * inl draft, pick order, pick delegation (include/struct.h only)

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From jrd at gerdesas.com  Sat Sep  8 21:20:13 2007
From: jrd at gerdesas.com (John R. Dennison)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:20:13 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org> <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070909022013.GG16488@mail.beanhq.com>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 09:51:46PM -0700, Rich Hansen wrote:
> 
> PS Is this nitty-gritty technical type stuff inappropriate for the list 
> at large?  Should I take it off list?  It certainly seems relevant to 
> me, but I'm in the thick of it.

	It's perfectly suited, the name is 'netrek-dev' afterall.

	Another option is the IRC developer channel, available at
	irc.freenode.net, #netrek.




							John

-- 
"I'm sorry but our engineers do not have phones."
As stated by a Network Solutions Customer Service representative when asked to
be put through to an engineer.

"My other computer is your windows box."
                                     Ralf Hildebrandt
<sxem> trying to play sturgeon while it's under attack is apparently not fun.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sat Sep  8 21:44:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:44:19 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] /ignore RadoS
In-Reply-To: <20070908101735.GA14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070829031940.GA3694@us.netrek.org>
	<20070908101735.GA14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070909024419.GD15269@us.netrek.org>

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 12:17:35PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> Hmm, why do you give contradictory answers?

I don't think they are contradictory.  I think you just don't understand
me.  Therefore I declare that I cannot communicate with you, and you
will need an interpreter.  You are an information terrorist.  I'd much
rather code.  You are hereby ignored.  The queue is flushed.  Goodbye.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sun Sep  9 02:02:44 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:02:44 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress -- Animation Question
In-Reply-To: <20070909022042.GC15269@us.netrek.org>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org>
	<46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>	<20070909021353.GB15269@us.netrek.org>
	<20070909022042.GC15269@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46E39A94.8020607@cfl.rr.com>

I spent a fair bit of this afternoon examining draft.c with an eye for 
the animation of the various movement, and ended up delving 
shoulder-deep into the various position functions in daemonII.c, 
transwarp.c, util.c, etc etc.  And of course, I have a few questions.

Currently, the code put together in draft.c updates the player 
positions, directly I believe?, via the p_x_y_go() function, in 
inl_draft_update(), set to a 2 second fuse in daemonII.c.  It appears to 
me that this function directly sets the new player position, and so the 
ships will be moved towards their targets, defined in inl_place_XXX().

Will this work?  Will the normal player and ship updates in daemonII.c 
override the above?  If not, can I also do things like j->p_desdir = 
some_direction, and changedir(), to modify direction the ship is facing, 
and still move the ship position as described?

I had originally looked to transwarp.c for some guidance, and it appears 
here that normal ship position updating is overridden in daemonII.c by 
udtwarp(), and I was thinking a similar methodology might be used for 
draft movement (uddraftmove() or something), but I'm unsure how much 
unnecessary overhead this may add to a normal bronco server-- afterall, 
udplayers() and udships() executes pretty often.

Of course, perhaps you just threw p_x_y_go() in as a placeholder, a TODO 
of sorts, to get some animation up and moving.  I'm trying to flesh out 
the best way to get my spinning ship effect :-)

Any comments?

Rich


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep  9 00:12:50 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:12:50 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress -- Animation Question
In-Reply-To: <46E39A94.8020607@cfl.rr.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org> <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
	<20070909021353.GB15269@us.netrek.org>
	<20070909022042.GC15269@us.netrek.org>
	<46E39A94.8020607@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070909051250.GF15269@us.netrek.org>

On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 12:02:44AM -0700, Rich Hansen wrote:
> Currently, the code put together in draft.c updates the player 
> positions, directly I believe?, via the p_x_y_go() function, in 
> inl_draft_update(), set to a 2 second fuse in daemonII.c.  It appears to 
> me that this function directly sets the new player position, and so the 
> ships will be moved towards their targets, defined in inl_place_XXX().

Yes.  The fuse has been reduced since then.  I've also tested it now,
and made a few tweaks.

> Will the normal player and ship updates in daemonII.c override the
> above?  If not, can I also do things like j->p_desdir =
> some_direction, and changedir(), to modify direction the ship is
> facing, and still move the ship position as described?

If you want to navigate the ships using p_desdir and p_desspeed then
p_x_y_go() is not appropriate at all.  Where you see p_x_y_go() in
draft.c, you will need to replace it with code that will decide what
p_desdir and p_desspeed to set.

I've pushed a patch containing your latest and my changes that were
needed to make it work.  On starting the draft, the ships glide into the
pool positions, the captains glide out of them, and then they can "lock"
onto players in turn.  As each player is picked, they move to the pick
area behind the captain.  (At least, with my style of positioning.)

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sun Sep  9 13:35:31 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:35:31 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Installing from Darcs, possible Wiki Mods
Message-ID: <19041549.1123121189362931377.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>

Hi all,

Just got through building an install from James darcs repo, figured I ought to be testing some of the changes before sending patches through (at least compiling, you know?).

Woo Doggies, was that fun!  I had all kinds of interesting issues.  Perhaps I can speed up the process a bit for the next guy.

Firstly, I installed the latest Debian from the net-inst CD, as a desktop-- so you don't automatically get all of the packages.  Installing darcs and pulling the code was easy.  

Next, I had to install autoconf.  Its worth noting that it is not installed by default via the above methods.  That -is- covered in the wiki.

Next, sh autogen.sh fails, as my gcc is unable to create compiled objects!  Indeed, attempting to compile hello.c shows that it can't find stdio.h-- turns out, although gcc is installed by default, the libraries (libc6) aren't!  How silly!  Uninstalling and reinstalling gcc picked up the dependent libraries, correcting that.  You could probably just install the libraries instead, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

Next, the ubiquitous gbdm could not be found.  This one took awhile-- it wasn't even on my system, even though I had the package libgdbm3 installed!  It turns out, you need to install the libgdbm3-dev package, if you want the source files (I know, duh, but it could happen to anyone :-).  So I installed that.

The heavens opened up and the angels sang! sh tests/build goes through!  The code compiles!  Now I just have to find where the installation went...

I suggest the following additions to the wiki page "Building Vanilla from Darcs", at 

http://wiki.us.netrek.org/netrek-dev/Building/FromDarcs

Adding the following packages to the required list:  libgdbm-dev, libc6 
Perhaps adding a note, or faq, about common problems and solutions, starting with the two above.  They may be basic, but then, so are lots of people.

Now, where'd that installation go...

Rich


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep  9 19:01:33 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:01:33 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Installing from Darcs, possible Wiki Mods
In-Reply-To: <19041549.1123121189362931377.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
References: <19041549.1123121189362931377.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web01-z01>
Message-ID: <20070910000133.GA4897@us.netrek.org>

All good data, attached patch pushed to better document how new
developers can do their first build.

On Sun, Sep 09, 2007 at 02:35:31PM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> Next, I had to install autoconf.  Its worth noting that it is not
> installed by default via the above methods.  That -is- covered in the
> wiki.

I've removed it from the Wiki in preference to having the information in
one place, README.developers.

> The heavens opened up and the angels sang! sh tests/build goes
> through!  The code compiles!  Now I just have to find where the
> installation went...

tests/build is not for building an installation, it is for testing that
a complete build and install will work.

> I suggest the following additions to the wiki page "Building Vanilla
> from Darcs", at 

... ah, we need to get you an account on the wiki?  Wish I could
remember how to do that.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 10 07:07:59 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:07:59 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
References: <20926771.1018491189263968273.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web23-z01>
	<20070909012230.GD6995@us.netrek.org> <46E37BE2.4050908@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070910120759.GA11831@us.netrek.org>

The INL draft mode is now operational, as far as the server side of
things is concerned.  Rich, could you merge my changes with your code,
and tell me which of the following you're happy to handle ...

1.  the INL robot vote to start a draft,

2.  the alternate tactical layout you've started on,

3.  use of normal ship navigation rather than my "transwarping".

They are the things I've stayed out of because you had started them.

--

For those interested, the sequence goes like this:

a.  captains enter a command to start a draft, both must agree,

b.  ships are transwarped to the galaxy centre, positioned in a line
which we call the "pool",

c.  while moving, ships cannot change direction or speed, but they can
fire weaponry and raise shields, but the weaponry is harmless,

d.  while stationary, ships can change direction, but not speed, and can
raise or lower shields, and use harmless weaponry ... so that body
language may continue,

e.  the two captains are transwarped out of the pool and stand side by
side,

f.  the captains alternate in using "lock" or "tractor" to pick players
from the pool, the ships change to the captains team, and move next to
the captain in an area called the "pick",

g.  a captain can pass on his round using a "lock" on the other captain,

h.  a captain can choose a selector from his already picked ships, the
selector moves into a new position, and is allowed to make picks in the
same way the captain may ... any number of selectors can be chosen, and
both the captain and the selector may make each pick,

i.  the draft is finished when the pool is empty, and the ordinary
pre-game resumes ... with the ships in their pick positions.

The time investment in a draft is trivial.  Two captains in a hurry can
easily complete each pick in a second or so.  It's not a problem, Zach.

One of the future improvements is the One True Port philosophy, so
that only one port number is needed to join a clue game, and the same
port can be used for observing or playing.  The draft would then allow
the captain to choose which players he wants to observe.  Test code is
now in setship to change a slot from observer to player and back.  Seems
to work alright.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 10 07:42:43 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 8:42:43 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
Message-ID: <2413204.731831189428163493.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z02>

Hello, 

---- James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote: 
> The INL draft mode is now operational, as far as the server side of
> things is concerned.  Rich, could you merge my changes with your code,
> and tell me which of the following you're happy to handle ...
> 
> 1.  the INL robot vote to start a draft,

I thought this was completed?

> 2.  the alternate tactical layout you've started on,
> 
> 3.  use of normal ship navigation rather than my "transwarping".

I'd like to work on both of the above.  Order of preference is to complete 2 first (as its very nearly done), and then tackle 3.

I'm gonna grab the latest and greatest here when I get a moment, and have a look to see exactly what needs completing.  There's a few features that may be nice-- but I've got to do the above first. 

> One of the future improvements is the One True Port philosophy, so
> that only one port number is needed to join a clue game, and the same
> port can be used for observing or playing.  The draft would then allow
> the captain to choose which players he wants to observe.  Test code is
> now in setship to change a slot from observer to player and back.  Seems
> to work alright.

This is functional?  Because this is awesome, and opens up all kinds of opportunities-- > 16 slot drafts, for example.  Definitely something I'd like to take a look at once we get the basic version here tweaked.

Rich
 
> -- 
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 10 10:33:50 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:33:50 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
Message-ID: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>

Hello,

> > 2.  the alternate tactical layout you've started on,
> > 
> > 3.  use of normal ship navigation rather than my "transwarping".
> 
> I'd like to work on both of the above.  Order of preference is to complete 2 first (as its very nearly done), and then tackle 3.

Ok, had a look at the latest and greatest.  I've added some code to finish the player positioning after picks, based on pick sequence; added code to set p_inl_pick_sequence.  I'm considering giving the variable double duty before picks, to use it to randomize the positioning in the player pool.  Correct would probably be to add a new variable, but this seems a waste.

As for #3, I didn't realize we could do j->p_dir = xxx.  I've modified the code to spin the ship around as its moving, like I've been wanting to do.  That was the only reason I was considering switching to desdir and desspeed, so I see no reason to do that now.

I'll have to wait til I get home from work to submit a patch (~7 hours from now-- 6 PM EST).   So far, all modifications have been to draft.c.  I think I'll take a look at animating the plasma thing I was thinking about earlier over lunch.

Other features to consider are a timer on captain picks, the penalty being a random pick, and a hold on the draft process until all players are in the player pool (especially for the case when a player quits, new player joins, and they're warping to the pool).  

Rich


From msucka0xff at programmer.net  Mon Sep 10 12:42:22 2007
From: msucka0xff at programmer.net (. .)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:42:22 -0800
Subject: [netrek-dev] VMware or Qemu image of Netrek Server Vanilla
	2.12.1
Message-ID: <20070910174222.D7E3D1CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>

Folks, Hmm good idea, I'll do a write up as well. It was very tricky to
get it installed from the business card iso, but the results are really
good I believe. In conjunction with cygwin's X11, it's possible to ssh -X
to the debian Colinux install (from windows cygwin), and run X apps, so
if the netrek server had console X/TCL app controls, one could access it.
Actually my image when all is installed correctly is 553M, which could
prob be reduced if desired, and when gz/bzipped it would be smaller in
case Bob or Quozl thought it useful to host on ftp.netrek.org. This is
really an ideal situation, e.g. running the netrek server as a native
Linux app on Windows, and I feel this is a good situation given the
alternatives e.g. porting to cygwin, or windows. Esp when the server goes
through revisions, it can more directly be patched. -bd

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "James Cameron"
  Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:02:47 +1000


  I've written up the process to create a Debian based virtual
  appliance
  for a Netrek Server, placing it in
  docs/README.debian-virtual-appliance
  in my repository, and attached.

  Unlike the previous post, this image is a mere 127Mb. ;-)

  One based on OpenWrt x86 should be about 3Mb. There's a lot of cruft
  in
  a standard Debian install.

-- 
We've Got Your Name @ www.mail.com!!!
Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains

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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 10 19:40:43 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:40:43 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>
	<2413204.731831189428163493.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z02>
References: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>
	<2413204.731831189428163493.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z02>
Message-ID: <20070911004043.GE5122@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 08:42:43AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> ---- James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote: 
> > 1.  the INL robot vote to start a draft,
> 
> I thought this was completed?

No.  I've tested, and "DRAFT" is not a recognised command for a captain.
Perhaps one of your patches didn't get to me?  Have a look at my darcs
repository and see.  There is a do_minidraft() function but it is not
called.

"tools/setgame inl-draft-on" works fine in the meanwhile, for testing.

> > Test code is now in setship to change a slot from observer to player
> > and back.  Seems to work alright.
> 
> This is functional?  Because this is awesome, and opens up all kinds
> of opportunities-- > 16 slot drafts, for example.  Definitely
> something I'd like to take a look at once we get the basic version
> here tweaked.

Yes, it functions.  It is not adequately tested though.  I've done some
tests and so far no problems, but players are better than my testing
anyday.

Currently the code is activated by: "tools/setship N observer" and
"tools/setship N player" where N is the slot number or letter.  Having
it activated by the captain doing the draft is the next thing.

I've tested it with COW on Linux.  Swapping a slot into and out of
observer mode seems to have no undo effect on the client.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 11:33:50AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> Ok, had a look at the latest and greatest.  I've added some code to
> finish the player positioning after picks, based on pick sequence;
> added code to set p_inl_pick_sequence.  I'm considering giving the
> variable double duty before picks, to use it to randomize the
> positioning in the player pool.  Correct would probably be to add a
> new variable, but this seems a waste.

Don't worry about the waste.  Let's add a new variable.
p_inl_pool_sequence.  This is so that a reject (should we finish that
part of the code) puts them back in the same place.

> I'll have to wait til I get home from work to submit a patch (~7 hours
> from now-- 6 PM EST).

Ugh.  You need a portable vm.  If this happens again, just mail me the
whole source file.  ;-)

> Other features to consider are a timer on captain picks, the penalty
> being a random pick, 

Is that really necessary?  The captains are in charge.  If they need to
talk something over, it is better in my opinion to let them.

> and a hold on the draft process until all players are in the player
> pool (especially for the case when a player quits, new player joins,
> and they're warping to the pool).  

Well, if they are transwarping to the pool the draft isn't over, and
they can be chosen by the up captain even while they are moving.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 10 19:50:07 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:50:07 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] VMware or Qemu image of Netrek Server
	Vanilla	2.12.1
In-Reply-To: <20070910174222.D7E3D1CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20070910174222.D7E3D1CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <20070911005007.GF5122@us.netrek.org>

No, we don't need to host one on ftp.netrek.org, we have enough servers
for the player community as it is.  Making it so easy would contribute
to starvation of the existing servers.

However, lowering the barrier for client developers is fine, provided
they don't take it into their heads to split the player community.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to  Mon Sep 10 19:58:07 2007
From: akb+lists.netrek-dev at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:58:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] /ignore RadoS
In-Reply-To: <20070909024419.GD15269@us.netrek.org> (James Cameron's message
	of "Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:44:19 +1000")
References: <20070716184127.GK12252@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070718101116.GI3333@us.netrek.org>
	<20070812153553.GE4598@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070829031940.GA3694@us.netrek.org>
	<20070908101735.GA14531@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
	<20070909024419.GD15269@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <0q3axmauhs.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to>


James, your patience is most impressive;
I'd rather you were coding, too. 




From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 10 23:09:44 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:09:44 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <20070911004043.GE5122@us.netrek.org>
References: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>	<2413204.731831189428163493.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z02>
	<20070911004043.GE5122@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <46E61508.80900@cfl.rr.com>

Hello,

Some comments on some of this.

James Cameron wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 08:42:43AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>   
>> ---- James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote: 
>>     
>>> 1.  the INL robot vote to start a draft,
>>>       
>> I thought this was completed?
>>     
>
> No.  I've tested, and "DRAFT" is not a recognised command for a captain.
> Perhaps one of your patches didn't get to me?  Have a look at my darcs
> repository and see.  There is a do_minidraft() function but it is not
> called.
>
> "tools/setgame inl-draft-on" works fine in the meanwhile, for testing.
>   
Yeah, forgot to update inlcmds.c.  You should have a patch for this 
now.  Command is "MINIDRAFT".

> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 11:33:50AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>   
>> Ok, had a look at the latest and greatest.  I've added some code to
>> finish the player positioning after picks, based on pick sequence;
>> added code to set p_inl_pick_sequence.  I'm considering giving the
>> variable double duty before picks, to use it to randomize the
>> positioning in the player pool.  Correct would probably be to add a
>> new variable, but this seems a waste.
>>     
>
> Don't worry about the waste.  Let's add a new variable.
> p_inl_pool_sequence.  This is so that a reject (should we finish that
> part of the code) puts them back in the same place.
>
>   
Done.  Still have to do something about players who enter mid-draft, 
however.  I didn't address that (yet).

>> I'll have to wait til I get home from work to submit a patch (~7 hours
>> from now-- 6 PM EST).
>>     
>
> Ugh.  You need a portable vm.  If this happens again, just mail me the
> whole source file.  ;-)
>
>   
Ok :-)


>> Other features to consider are a timer on captain picks, the penalty
>> being a random pick, 
>>     
>
> Is that really necessary?  The captains are in charge.  If they need to
> talk something over, it is better in my opinion to let them.
>
>   
I can certainly imagine cases where it would be necessary.  Certain 
players may use the draft time inappropriately otherwise (to discuss 
strategy or assign roles, say).  The above is certainly true, however.  
If they need to talk things over, we should supply them with a command 
to suspend the draft (pausedraft?).  I'll put that on my mental to-do list.


>> and a hold on the draft process until all players are in the player
>> pool (especially for the case when a player quits, new player joins,
>> and they're warping to the pool).  
>>     
>
> Well, if they are transwarping to the pool the draft isn't over, and
> they can be chosen by the up captain even while they are moving.
>
>   
True.  I suppose the captain should be reading; there is a message to 
all when a player joins.

Thanks,
Rich


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 10 19:56:10 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:56:10 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Patch Attached
Message-ID: <10644166.156571189472170884.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web08-z01>

See attached patch to complete positioning and spin ships.  I'm not completely pleased with my inl_pick_sequence implementation.  I will probably change that before the end here.
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 10 20:32:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:32:19 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <46E61508.80900@cfl.rr.com>
References: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>
	<2413204.731831189428163493.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z02>
	<20070911004043.GE5122@us.netrek.org> <46E61508.80900@cfl.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20070911013219.GG5122@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 09:09:44PM -0700, Rich Hansen wrote:
> Yeah, forgot to update inlcmds.c.  You should have a patch for this 
> now.  Command is "MINIDRAFT".

Command is now DRAFT following IRC discussion.

> Still have to do something about players who enter mid-draft, 
> however.  I didn't address that (yet).

I've tested that, they appear with INL_DRAFT_OFF, and since GU_INL_DRAFT
is set the inl_draft_update() brings them into the pool.

> I can certainly imagine cases where it would be necessary.  Certain 
> players may use the draft time inappropriately otherwise (to discuss 
> strategy or assign roles, say).  The above is certainly true, however.  
> If they need to talk things over, we should supply them with a command 
> to suspend the draft (pausedraft?).  I'll put that on my mental to-do list.

I'd rather not have the draft timed at all.  We already rely on the
captain, and let them drive the other processes to completion (race
selection, trades, game time selection, start).

> > Well, if they are transwarping to the pool the draft isn't over, and
> > they can be chosen by the up captain even while they are moving.
>   
> True.  I suppose the captain should be reading; there is a message to 
> all when a player joins.

The captain will also see the transwarping ship streaking across the
galactic.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From rogerborg at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 02:14:32 2007
From: rogerborg at gmail.com (Colin MacDonald)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:14:32 +0100
Subject: [netrek-dev] VMware or Qemu image of Netrek Server Vanilla
	2.12.1
In-Reply-To: <20070910174222.D7E3D1CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20070910174222.D7E3D1CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <37c7fe6a0709110014l3b8cd813ye8888f79817550ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/10/07, . . <msucka0xff at programmer.net> wrote:
>
> I feel [Colinux] is a good situation given the alternatives e.g. porting
> to cygwin, or windows.
>

I've just submitted a small patch to James that gets the server building
under Cygwin (tested with 1.5.24-2).  I haven't tried the tools yet, but the
basic game hosting works fine, as long as you have /usr/sbin/cygserver.exe
running.

Regards,

-Colin MacDonald-
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From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Sep 12 07:42:17 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:42:17 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>
References: <14356596.690931189438430166.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z02>
Message-ID: <20070912124217.GA16322@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 11:33:50AM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> As for #3, I didn't realize we could do j->p_dir = xxx.  I've modified
> the code to spin the ship around as its moving, like I've been wanting
> to do.

I've tried this, and it hasn't worked.  Which is surprising, given that
the code to point the ship at destination coordinates worked fine.  In
my latest patch I've commented it out until I understand it.

I've also added a third layout which I've made the default.  It keeps
the sense of away vs home layout already implied by the ROM and FED
pregame state:

- the pool of players is a horizontal line of ships from left to right,
  centered,

- the captains stand just off the line, the away (ROM) captain above the
  line, near their planets, the home (FED) captain below the line,

- players picked move beyond the captain, in the same direction as the
  planets that match their pregame team.

The current code in my repository has been through several runs of
tests/inl-draft ... it is rather fun selecting robots, and when the
draft ends they all take it out on the captains.  ;-)

I've not yet finished thinking about how to handle observers in the same
draft sequence.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Wed Sep 12 15:32:45 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:32:45 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
Message-ID: <4771742.751911189629165319.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>

---- James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote: 
> I've tried this, and it hasn't worked.  Which is surprising, given that
> the code to point the ship at destination coordinates worked fine.  In
> my latest patch I've commented it out until I understand it.

That's strange.  I'll have a look too.  Two possibilities that spring to mind are that, in order of liklihood:

a) I don't understand p_dir, and I'm not incrementing it enough to escape the nint function (although + 1 seems to be enough, is it rounded somewhere else to the nearest five or whatever?)

b) the point-the-ship-at-the-destination code doesn't work either, it just appears to, because some other code is actually updating ship direction, and happens to be  correctly pointing the ship as well.

> I've also added a third layout which I've made the default.  

Sweet, looks nice.

> The current code in my repository has been through several runs of
> tests/inl-draft ... it is rather fun selecting robots, and when the
> draft ends they all take it out on the captains.  ;-)

I'm going to have to go through a few runs tonight, sounds like fun :P

> I've not yet finished thinking about how to handle observers in the same
> draft sequence.

I've been thinking about this as well.  Is it possible to generate robot ships, assign them an observers number, and stick them in the pool?  Then we assign player slots (using setship) according to pick_sequence, randomly, or whatever scheme we devise.

The most important thing is to not break from graphical selection, which is great.  So they need some kind of placeholder on screen.

Rich


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Sep 12 20:52:00 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:52:00 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Minidraft Progress
In-Reply-To: <4771742.751911189629165319.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>
References: <4771742.751911189629165319.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web12-z01>
Message-ID: <20070913015200.GB4888@us.netrek.org>

On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 04:32:45PM -0400, cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> a) I don't understand p_dir, and I'm not incrementing it enough to
> escape the nint function (although + 1 seems to be enough, is it
> rounded somewhere else to the nearest five or whatever?)

I tried 10 as well, no luck.

> b) the point-the-ship-at-the-destination code doesn't work either, it
> just appears to, because some other code is actually updating ship
> direction, and happens to be  correctly pointing the ship as well.

Disabling this code leaves the ships to point as they choose as they
are transwarped.

> I'm going to have to go through a few runs tonight, sounds like fun :P

You need to do so to find the bugs.  ;-)

> > I've not yet finished thinking about how to handle observers in the same
> > draft sequence.
> 
> I've been thinking about this as well.  Is it possible to generate
> robot ships, assign them an observers number, and stick them in the
> pool?  Then we assign player slots (using setship) according to
> pick_sequence, randomly, or whatever scheme we devise.

Erm, not what I meant.  I mean how the captains choose who will be an
observer or not.  Currently the only actions the captains can take are:

1.  pass on the pick to the other captain,

2.  pick from the pool,

3.  delegate the selection duty to any number of their existing picks.

The captain will have to be able to mark a pool player as a reserve
player, who will be an observer during the game, yet become a player if
a slot leaves.

Also, once there are more pool players than can fit in an 8x8 game, the
captains will need a way to say "that's it, the rest have to be
independent non-speaking spectators".

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sat Sep 15 15:49:47 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:49:47 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] More Minidraft Mayhem!
Message-ID: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>

Hi all,

Got an INL server up and running, and finally got to do some playtesting on my own machine with the minidraft code.  At the risk of being immodest (and not too much so, since James has written the majority of the code), I think it's awesome!

I'll be pushing a patch, probably later today, to fix problems regarding placement of captains and players in the TOP_TO_BOTTOM mode (ie, my mode).  Picks and captains will now land in reasonable locations.  I have to say, I think all of the placement modes are great.  I expect we'll end up using the default mode in the long run.

I've also toyed around with trying to get the ships to spin.  I slowed down the transwarp (by doing dx/20 instead of dx/4, etc), and noticed that the ships definitely do some quirky flipping around, right up until they start getting close (~1 tactical) of their final destinations, when it stops.  Simliarly, when they're picked, they do -no- spinning, since they are already so close to their destination.  It's unclear why distance to destination would have an effect.  I'm going to keep playing around with it.

I've noticed a possible bug where sometimes, if my ship is orbiting, it does not transwarp to the desired location; it gets "caught" on the borders of the core planets.  I'll do more testing and see if I can reproduce it, or what.

I'd like to finish with I think we'll be ready to playtest this thing for real pretty darn soon, if not now.  I mean, hell, the worse that can happen is we crash the server, and Karthik managed to do that 2 or 3 times the other night anyhow :-)

Rich






From karthik at karthik.com  Sun Sep 16 16:04:14 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:04:14 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] More Minidraft Mayhem!
In-Reply-To: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
References: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
Message-ID: <1AE8A148-9A4E-484E-BC03-A08DCB46738E@karthik.com>

Bugs:

Ships that are in orbit don't get moved properly as noted. Simply  
knock ships out of orbit before moving them.

There's no indication as to who has the current pick. This is  
especially bad for the first pick. How about flashing shields a  
couple times a second on whoever has the current pick, and keeping  
shields down for the other captain?

It might be nice to have a timeout. Perhaps this option could be  
voted on by the captains. I'd say something like 1 minute is  
reasonable. Pog suggests flashing shields faster the closer you're  
getting to timing out. (Plus the obvious messages.)


From netrek at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 00:34:46 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:34:46 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW parsing bug
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709152234v6e4e6ec1ha263516872aee47b@mail.gmail.com>

"87% damaged" showed up as "87 32768amaged" in COW when i sent his
slot @, it appeared fine in the player list and in console it said:

Unrecognizable special character in macro pass2:    Trying to continue.

Zach


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Sun Sep 16 01:31:17 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (Rich Hansen)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:31:17 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] More Minidraft Mayhem!
In-Reply-To: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
References: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
Message-ID: <46ECCDB5.3030003@cfl.rr.com>

cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> I've also toyed around with trying to get the ships to spin.  I slowed down the transwarp (by doing dx/20 instead of dx/4, etc), and noticed that the ships definitely do some quirky flipping around, right up until they start getting close (~1 tactical) of their final destinations, when it stops.  Simliarly, when they're picked, they do -no- spinning, since they are already so close to their destination.  It's unclear why distance to destination would have an effect.  I'm going to keep playing around with it.
>   
Firstly, yes, I'm quoting myself <g>.  I've implemented spinning.  I 
believe somewhere either in udships() or udplayers(), the p_desdir is 
coming into play.  By setting p_desdir to p_dir after I assign it, I 
skip some change direction code, and overwrite anything else that may be 
in there.  In any event, it works.  And I think its neat-o.
> I'd like to finish with I think we'll be ready to playtest this thing for real pretty darn soon, if not now.  I mean, hell, the worse that can happen is we crash the server, and Karthik managed to do that 2 or 3 times the other night anyhow :-)
>   
One problem is we're allowing, if one captain passes, 9 roms and 7 
feds.  When the game started after drafting in this way, it busted one 
of the slots (mine), although I'm not 100% sure this was related.  In 
any event, we probably need to prevent this.

Rich
> Rich
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>   



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Sun Sep 16 06:01:47 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:01:47 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] More Minidraft Mayhem!
In-Reply-To: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
References: <3566483.905771189889387483.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web07-z02>
Message-ID: <20070916110147.GA8908@us.netrek.org>

G'day Rich,

The strange behaviour for ships that are orbiting ... we have yet to
knock them out of orbit, and out of dock, during inl_draft_begin().
Have a look at the conquer.c or the tractor code in the daemon.  There
are some common functions developed for some of this, like those in
bay.c.

On the different placement modes, the key thing is that the current mode
can be changed at any time by the server admin.  I've also considered
that the default mode should happen between the ROM and FED frontline
planets.  Perhaps the centre coordinates of the draft should be settable
in sysdefaults ... INL_DRAFT_X and INL_DRAFT_Y.

There are a few TODOs in the source.  Testing with CONFINE enabled may
be interesting.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From karthik at karthik.com  Mon Sep 17 13:16:15 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:16:15 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW parsing bug
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709152234v6e4e6ec1ha263516872aee47b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ecfa260c0709152234v6e4e6ec1ha263516872aee47b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0B9A34F3-C083-4B00-BD5A-48BC0FE7AC8B@karthik.com>

On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:34 AM, Zach wrote:

> "87% damaged" showed up as "87 32768amaged" in COW when i sent his
> slot @, it appeared fine in the player list and in console it said:
>
> Unrecognizable special character in macro pass2:    Trying to  
> continue.

A fix for this potential vulnerability has been pushed to my darcs  
repository.


From karthik at karthik.com  Mon Sep 17 13:35:28 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:35:28 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW parsing bug
In-Reply-To: <0B9A34F3-C083-4B00-BD5A-48BC0FE7AC8B@karthik.com>
References: <ecfa260c0709152234v6e4e6ec1ha263516872aee47b@mail.gmail.com>
	<0B9A34F3-C083-4B00-BD5A-48BC0FE7AC8B@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <E956CB32-F662-4B15-9574-AFB7A534781A@karthik.com>

On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Karthik Arumugham wrote:

> On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:34 AM, Zach wrote:
>
>> "87% damaged" showed up as "87 32768amaged" in COW when i sent his
>> slot @, it appeared fine in the player list and in console it said:
>>
>> Unrecognizable special character in macro pass2:    Trying to  
>> continue.
>
> A fix for this potential vulnerability has been pushed to my darcs  
> repository.

To clarify: this is not a bug in COW. This is a bug in the  
'whois'/'@' command in the Vanilla server. The presence of % in a  
name or login caused it to be parsed as a format string identifier.  
There may be an unrelated bug in COW causing your macro error.

Fix has been pushed to pickled as well. Other server admins are urged  
to apply this fix, as it is a potential vulnerability. (I do not  
believe there is any way to exploit it, however, past possibly  
crashing the ntserv process of someone with a %.)


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 17 20:22:20 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:22:20 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
Message-ID: <27115555.1377371190078540337.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web21-z01>

Hello all,

My repo is online and functional-- it is located at:

http://dotman.gerdesas.com/netrek/netrek-server/

I have pushed 3 patches, which correct the top_to_bottom placement mode, implement spinning, and correct the orbit bug, respectively.

Rich


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 17 21:03:21 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:03:21 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] COW parsing bug
In-Reply-To: <0B9A34F3-C083-4B00-BD5A-48BC0FE7AC8B@karthik.com>
References: <ecfa260c0709152234v6e4e6ec1ha263516872aee47b@mail.gmail.com>
	<0B9A34F3-C083-4B00-BD5A-48BC0FE7AC8B@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <20070918020321.GB6396@us.netrek.org>

On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 02:16:15PM -0400, Karthik Arumugham wrote:
> A fix for this potential vulnerability has been pushed to my darcs  
> repository.

Taken.  Also pushed a followup patch that reviews all use of the same
function, and renames the function to avoid concept collision with ship
and torpedo bouncing, and to give the hint that format strings are
needed.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Mon Sep 17 21:07:41 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:07:41 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
Message-ID: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>

Hello,

Pushed another patch to my repo that will cause the captain who's pick is pending to be a BB, and the other captain an SC-- so now we have an active indicator as to who's up.  This was easier to implement than spinning plasmas, although that may come later.

Rich
---- cflrich at cfl.rr.com wrote: 
> Hello all,
> 
> My repo is online and functional-- it is located at:
> 
> http://dotman.gerdesas.com/netrek/netrek-server/
> 
> I have pushed 3 patches, which correct the top_to_bottom placement mode, implement spinning, and correct the orbit bug, respectively.
> 
> Rich
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev



From quozl at us.netrek.org  Mon Sep 17 22:54:19 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:54:19 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
In-Reply-To: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
References: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
Message-ID: <20070918035419.GH6396@us.netrek.org>

Patches taken, merged, and pushed.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Sep 18 06:36:11 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:36:11 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] sydney.netrek.org commissioned
Message-ID: <20070918113611.GA30898@us.netrek.org>

sydney.netrek.org has been commissioned, hosted by Danny Yee, operated
by myself.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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From karthik at karthik.com  Tue Sep 18 08:15:04 2007
From: karthik at karthik.com (Karthik Arumugham)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:15:04 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
In-Reply-To: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
References: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
Message-ID: <218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>

More suggestions/issues:

Move everyone back home after the draft. Otherwise people will kill- 
scum each other since everyone's clumped together in the middle,  
which is be a bad thing if some players are idling before the game.  
This is bad since they'll go to MOTD and possibly get kicked out of  
the game.

Right now when it's your pick, you can tractor a ship you've picked  
and it moves next to you. You don't lose your pick, and you can  
tractor it again to move it back into the regular picked area. What's  
the purpose of this?

Perhaps make all undrafted ships neutral? This might give a better  
indication of the state of the draft. (Though people might be  
confused by the independent bitmaps!)

If it's your pick and you're already up by 1 or more ships, the pick  
should automatically pass back to the other captain. This fixes  
potential numerical imbalance when pass is used. This could be a  
problem if players quit and rejoin during the process, though. So  
maybe not. A better fix is just to disable pass after the first ship  
is picked, because there's really no reason to ever pass except to  
give the other captain the first pick. (Other than the case of two  
captains not wanting the last player, and deadlocking by passing it  
back and forth. Which is another reason to disable pass.)

 From an earlier private email to Rich:

"Pog and I were talking about showing rank for pick order. There are  
9 ranks, so Ensign can get used as a placeholder for players not  
drafted yet, and for players who join during the game who weren't  
part of the draft process. You'd have to disable the promotion  
mechanism. It'd be nice to show a "xxx promoted to y" when a player  
is drafted and gets their new rank.

Captains == Admiral (promoted when the draft request is approved)
Picks 1 and 2 == Rear Admiral
Picks 3 and 4 == Commodore
etc.

This would be a cool feature, especially for less experienced  
players, as rank tells you when a player was picked, so you have some  
idea of what to expect from that player."


From regrado at web.de  Tue Sep 18 10:42:14 2007
From: regrado at web.de (Rado S)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:42:14 +0200
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
In-Reply-To: <218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>
References: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
	<218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <20070918154214.GA19950@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>

=- Karthik Arumugham wrote on Tue 18.Sep'07 at  9:15:04 -0400 -=

> Move everyone back home after the draft. Otherwise people will
> kill- scum each other since everyone's clumped together in the
> middle, which is be a bad thing if some players are idling before
> the game.

Let them then all be peaceful during the draft, reset to hostile
when game begins.

-- 
? Rado S. -- You must provide YOUR effort for your goal!
EVERY effort counts: at least to show your attitude.
You're responsible for ALL you do: you get what you give.


From cflrich at cfl.rr.com  Tue Sep 18 11:18:07 2007
From: cflrich at cfl.rr.com (cflrich at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:18:07 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
Message-ID: <18978868.918351190132287644.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web03-z01>

Hello,

Just a quick note on one of the items:
---- Karthik Arumugham <karthik at karthik.com> wrote: 
> More suggestions/issues:
>
> Right now when it's your pick, you can tractor a ship you've picked  
> and it moves next to you. You don't lose your pick, and you can  
> tractor it again to move it back into the regular picked area. What's  
> the purpose of this?
> 

This allows a player the captain has picked to make selections for him.  The idea is if the team captain, for whatever reason, is say an organizer, as opposed to a clue who knows everyone's relative strengths, the captain can first draft a clued player, and then select that player to make the remaining picks for the team, in his place.

It's much less complicated than I worded it there :-)  We'll see if it gets much use.

Rich



From netrek at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 22:40:13 2007
From: netrek at gmail.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:40:13 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] sydney.netrek.org commissioned
In-Reply-To: <20070918113611.GA30898@us.netrek.org>
References: <20070918113611.GA30898@us.netrek.org>
Message-ID: <ecfa260c0709182040v3774f895n4dd69b160f4846aa@mail.gmail.com>

Cool. Will you be setting up a website and holding weekly Aussie games
as you did with netrek.hwy.com.au ?

Zach

On 9/18/07, James Cameron <quozl at us.netrek.org> wrote:
> sydney.netrek.org has been commissioned, hosted by Danny Yee, operated
> by myself.
>
> --
> James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>
>


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Sep 18 23:21:16 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:21:16 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] sydney.netrek.org commissioned
In-Reply-To: <ecfa260c0709182040v3774f895n4dd69b160f4846aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070918113611.GA30898@us.netrek.org>
	<ecfa260c0709182040v3774f895n4dd69b160f4846aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070919042116.GD5464@us.netrek.org>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 11:40:13PM -0400, Zach wrote:
> Cool. Will you be setting up a website and holding weekly Aussie games
> as you did with netrek.hwy.com.au ?

I don't know.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Sep 19 01:42:05 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:42:05 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
In-Reply-To: <218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>
References: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
	<218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>
Message-ID: <20070919064205.GG5464@us.netrek.org>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 09:15:04AM -0400, Karthik Arumugham wrote:
> Right now when it's your pick, you can tractor a ship you've picked  
> and it moves next to you. You don't lose your pick, and you can  
> tractor it again to move it back into the regular picked area. What's  
> the purpose of this?

docs/README.inl-draft point "h".

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Wed Sep 19 01:40:33 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:40:33 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Repo Up, 3 Patches pushed
In-Reply-To: <20070918154214.GA19950@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
References: <7799914.901521190081261528.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web19-z02>
	<218F9A34-ADAB-4F03-8548-AA3265ABCCB2@karthik.com>
	<20070918154214.GA19950@sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>
Message-ID: <20070919064033.GF5464@us.netrek.org>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 05:42:14PM +0200, Rado S wrote:
> Let them then all be peaceful during the draft, reset to hostile
> when game begins.

They are all safe-idle during the draft, so tactical is green alert,
weapons are harmless.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/


From quozl at us.netrek.org  Tue Sep 25 18:26:29 2007
From: quozl at us.netrek.org (James Cameron)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:26:29 +1000
Subject: [netrek-dev] Archives of Netrek Metaserver Overhaul 1995
Message-ID: <20070925232629.GA6324@us.netrek.org>

While hunting around on an old system at work looking for how I used to
parse logfile to generate stats from a pickup game, I came across the
Netrek Metaserver Overhaul 1995 documentation.  A quick google shows
this documentation isn't available elsewhere.  So I've placed it for
viewing.

http://quozl.linux.org.au/netrek/md/

Also attached.

-- 
James Cameron    mailto:quozl at us.netrek.org     http://quozl.netrek.org/
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