From quozl at laptop.org  Thu Mar 25 18:46:26 2021
From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:46:26 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
Message-ID: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>

I was cleaning up compiler warnings in a client and found the
SELF_8FLAGS2 short packets feature that packs some of the me->p_flags
into a byte does actually misalign the flags beyond the 32-bit width
of the target variable.

There's no implementation of the feature in my server code.

Does anyone know of a server side implementation of SELF_8FLAGS2?

I'm inclined to remove it rather than fix it without testing it.

-- 
James Cameron
https://quozl.linux.org.au/

From darrellroot at mac.com  Thu Mar 25 19:37:23 2021
From: darrellroot at mac.com (Darrell Root)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:37:23 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>

The Swift Netrek server does not implement short packets.  So no impact to my server.  Thanks for asking!

Darrell


> On Mar 25, 2021, at 4:46 PM, James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> I was cleaning up compiler warnings in a client and found the
> SELF_8FLAGS2 short packets feature that packs some of the me->p_flags
> into a byte does actually misalign the flags beyond the 32-bit width
> of the target variable.
> 
> There's no implementation of the feature in my server code.
> 
> Does anyone know of a server side implementation of SELF_8FLAGS2?
> 
> I'm inclined to remove it rather than fix it without testing it.
> 
> -- 
> James Cameron
> https://quozl.linux.org.au/
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev


From quozl at laptop.org  Thu Mar 25 23:35:43 2021
From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:35:43 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>

Thanks.  I'm glad.  The complexity of short packets is no longer
justified; the internet has grown up.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 05:37:23PM -0700, Darrell Root wrote:
> The Swift Netrek server does not implement short packets.  So no impact to my server.  Thanks for asking!
> 
> Darrell
> 
> 
> > On Mar 25, 2021, at 4:46 PM, James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> > 
> > I was cleaning up compiler warnings in a client and found the
> > SELF_8FLAGS2 short packets feature that packs some of the me->p_flags
> > into a byte does actually misalign the flags beyond the 32-bit width
> > of the target variable.
> > 
> > There's no implementation of the feature in my server code.
> > 
> > Does anyone know of a server side implementation of SELF_8FLAGS2?
> > 
> > I'm inclined to remove it rather than fix it without testing it.
> > 
> > -- 
> > James Cameron
> > https://quozl.linux.org.au/
> > _______________________________________________
> > netrek-dev mailing list
> > netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> > http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

-- 
James Cameron
https://quozl.linux.org.au/

From darrellroot at mac.com  Thu Mar 25 23:46:13 2021
From: darrellroot at mac.com (Darrell Root)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 21:46:13 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>

Thanks!  I thought I was being lazy by skipping the short packets implementation.  But I was just forward-thinking!  ;-).



Related to SELF_8FLAGS2, I happen to be digging into Robert Temple’s old JTrek client this evening and noticed that SELF_8FLAGS2 is turned off by default there too. Of course that’s a client not a server.

public class FeatureList {
…
	public Feature[] features = { 
...
		new Feature("SELF_8FLAGS2", Feature.SERVER_TYPE, Feature.OFF, Feature.SEND_FEATURE),


Darrell

> On Mar 25, 2021, at 9:35 PM, James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks.  I'm glad.  The complexity of short packets is no longer
> justified; the internet has grown up.
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 05:37:23PM -0700, Darrell Root wrote:
>> The Swift Netrek server does not implement short packets.  So no impact to my server.  Thanks for asking!
>> 
>> Darrell
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 25, 2021, at 4:46 PM, James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I was cleaning up compiler warnings in a client and found the
>>> SELF_8FLAGS2 short packets feature that packs some of the me->p_flags
>>> into a byte does actually misalign the flags beyond the 32-bit width
>>> of the target variable.
>>> 
>>> There's no implementation of the feature in my server code.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know of a server side implementation of SELF_8FLAGS2?
>>> 
>>> I'm inclined to remove it rather than fix it without testing it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> James Cameron
>>> https://quozl.linux.org.au/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netrek-dev mailing list
>>> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>>> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> netrek-dev mailing list
>> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 
> -- 
> James Cameron
> https://quozl.linux.org.au/
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

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From quozl at laptop.org  Fri Mar 26 00:48:12 2021
From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:48:12 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>

Nice.  For your interest, here's where the client code for
SELF_8FLAGS2 gets it wrong;

https://github.com/quozl/netrek-client-cow/blob/master/short.c#L496

Each of the bit shifts are reversed.  I think it should be

	packet->pad1 & (PFTRACT >> 15)) << 15

Guess code was copied from a server implementation and only partly
rewritten.

Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th
May 1993.  ;-)

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 09:46:13PM -0700, Darrell Root wrote:
> Thanks!  I thought I was being lazy by skipping the short packets
> implementation.  But I was just forward-thinking!  ;-).
> 
> Related to SELF_8FLAGS2, I happen to be digging into Robert Temple’s old JTrek
> client this evening and noticed that SELF_8FLAGS2 is turned off by default
> there too. Of course that’s a client not a server.
> 
> public class FeatureList {
> …
> public Feature[] features = { 
> ...
> new Feature("SELF_8FLAGS2", Feature.SERVER_TYPE, Feature.OFF,
> Feature.SEND_FEATURE),
> 
> Darrell
> 
>     On Mar 25, 2021, at 9:35 PM, James Cameron <[1]quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> 
>     Thanks.  I'm glad.  The complexity of short packets is no longer
>     justified; the internet has grown up.
> 
>     On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 05:37:23PM -0700, Darrell Root wrote:
> 
>         The Swift Netrek server does not implement short packets.  So no impact
>         to my server.  Thanks for asking!
> 
>         Darrell
> 
>             On Mar 25, 2021, at 4:46 PM, James Cameron <[2]quozl at laptop.org>
>             wrote:
> 
>             I was cleaning up compiler warnings in a client and found the
>             SELF_8FLAGS2 short packets feature that packs some of the me->
>             p_flags
>             into a byte does actually misalign the flags beyond the 32-bit
>             width
>             of the target variable.
> 
>             There's no implementation of the feature in my server code.
> 
>             Does anyone know of a server side implementation of SELF_8FLAGS2?
> 
>             I'm inclined to remove it rather than fix it without testing it.
> 
>             --
>             James Cameron
>             [3]https://quozl.linux.org.au/
>             _______________________________________________
>             netrek-dev mailing list
>             netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>             http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         netrek-dev mailing list
>         [4]netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>         http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 
>     --
>     James Cameron
>     [5]https://quozl.linux.org.au/
>     _______________________________________________
>     netrek-dev mailing list
>     netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
>     http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [2] mailto:quozl at laptop.org
> [3] https://quozl.linux.org.au/
> [4] mailto:netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> [5] https://quozl.linux.org.au/

> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev


-- 
James Cameron
https://quozl.linux.org.au/

From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 13:17:45 2021
From: netrek at gmail.com (Jesus Saves)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:17:45 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <CAPu6UvAVBXmWUyYiowN6=w6A30ZBHVPq8YS414pLycm3KXAhRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 1:48 AM James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:

>
> Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th

May 1993.  ;-)
>

Wow, most gamers weren't even alive when that code was written!

Zach
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From habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu  Fri Mar 26 13:53:52 2021
From: habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu (Alec Habig)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:53:52 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <20210326185352.GA6618@neutrino.d.umn.edu>

James Cameron writes:
> 
> Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th
> May 1993.  ;-)

Original motivation: Heiko was trying to play from the end of a network
connected by string, tin cans, and carrier pigeons from rural Austria.

short packets made enough of a difference that we could field a (semi)
competitive team from Europe in the INL for most of the seasons the INL
was a thing: the Eurotwinks.

Our home games were great, because the NA based players had no idea how
to play with 300ms ping, but that was the way we played all the time.
Even for home games for most of the team :)

In related news, the network stack I stole from Heiko (and netrek) to
run the SNEWS supernova early warning system has also been showing its
age, for the same packet-length confusion reasons as started this
thread.  We're redoing it all in python and kafka now.

-- 
			       Alec Habig
		     University of Minnesota Duluth
		     Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
			     ahabig at umn.edu
		   http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/

From habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu  Fri Mar 26 16:01:54 2021
From: habig at neutrino.d.umn.edu (Alec Habig)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 16:01:54 -0500
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326185352.GA6618@neutrino.d.umn.edu>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
 <20210326185352.GA6618@neutrino.d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20210326210154.GB11715@neutrino.d.umn.edu>

Alec Habig writes:
> Original motivation: Heiko was trying to play from the end of a
> network connected by string, tin cans, and carrier pigeons from rural
> Austria.

oops - Heiko was at Uni Dortmund (Germany), sorry.  A big chunk of our
team was at Uni Gratz.

-- 
			       Alec Habig
		     University of Minnesota Duluth
		     Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
			     ahabig at umn.edu
		   http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/

From quozl at laptop.org  Fri Mar 26 16:04:49 2021
From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:04:49 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326185352.GA6618@neutrino.d.umn.edu>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
 <20210326185352.GA6618@neutrino.d.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20210326210449.GC3248@laptop.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 01:53:52PM -0500, Alec Habig wrote:
> James Cameron writes:
> > 
> > Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th
> > May 1993.  ;-)
> 
> Original motivation: Heiko was trying to play from the end of a
> network connected by string, tin cans, and carrier pigeons from
> rural Austria.

Indeed.  In my case, I was playing over 2400 baud modem running SLIP
into a VAXstation.  Short packets made all the difference.

> short packets made enough of a difference that we could field a (semi)
> competitive team from Europe in the INL for most of the seasons the INL
> was a thing: the Eurotwinks.
> 
> Our home games were great, because the NA based players had no idea how
> to play with 300ms ping, but that was the way we played all the time.
> Even for home games for most of the team :)

Yes, I remember how players with low latency showed a different
playing style and were still vulnerable to the attacks from players
with high latency.

> In related news, the network stack I stole from Heiko (and netrek) to
> run the SNEWS supernova early warning system has also been showing its
> age, for the same packet-length confusion reasons as started this
> thread.  We're redoing it all in python and kafka now.

I'll contact you offlist about that.

-- 
James Cameron
https://quozl.linux.org.au/

From darrellroot at mac.com  Fri Mar 26 16:22:51 2021
From: darrellroot at mac.com (Darrell Root)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:22:51 -0700
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326210449.GC3248@laptop.org>
References: <20210326210449.GC3248@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <959B56AE-97AD-48AF-8C12-1EB6DF69033D@mac.com>

If we redid Netrek from scratch today, I’m confident we’d use a type-length-value encoding.  That way clients and servers can parse past new types of messages without corrupting the data stream.

Darrell

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 26, 2021, at 2:05 PM, James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 01:53:52PM -0500, Alec Habig wrote:
>> James Cameron writes:
>>> 
>>> Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th
>>> May 1993.  ;-)
>> 
>> Original motivation: Heiko was trying to play from the end of a
>> network connected by string, tin cans, and carrier pigeons from
>> rural Austria.
> 
> Indeed.  In my case, I was playing over 2400 baud modem running SLIP
> into a VAXstation.  Short packets made all the difference.
> 
>> short packets made enough of a difference that we could field a (semi)
>> competitive team from Europe in the INL for most of the seasons the INL
>> was a thing: the Eurotwinks.
>> 
>> Our home games were great, because the NA based players had no idea how
>> to play with 300ms ping, but that was the way we played all the time.
>> Even for home games for most of the team :)
> 
> Yes, I remember how players with low latency showed a different
> playing style and were still vulnerable to the attacks from players
> with high latency.
> 
>> In related news, the network stack I stole from Heiko (and netrek) to
>> run the SNEWS supernova early warning system has also been showing its
>> age, for the same packet-length confusion reasons as started this
>> thread.  We're redoing it all in python and kafka now.
> 
> I'll contact you offlist about that.
> 
> -- 
> James Cameron
> https://quozl.linux.org.au/
> _______________________________________________
> netrek-dev mailing list
> netrek-dev at us.netrek.org
> http://mailman.us.netrek.org/mailman/listinfo/netrek-dev

From quozl at laptop.org  Fri Mar 26 16:58:36 2021
From: quozl at laptop.org (James Cameron)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:58:36 +1100
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <CAPu6UvAVBXmWUyYiowN6=w6A30ZBHVPq8YS414pLycm3KXAhRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
 <CAPu6UvAVBXmWUyYiowN6=w6A30ZBHVPq8YS414pLycm3KXAhRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210326215836.GF3248@laptop.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 02:17:45PM -0400, Jesus Saves wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 1:48 AM James Cameron <[1]quozl at laptop.org> wrote:
> 
>     Tedd Hadley and Heiko Wengler's amazing short packets code from 24th 
> 
>     May 1993.  ;-)
> 
> Wow, most gamers weren't even alive when that code was written!

Not correct.  Gamers are of all ages.  Now look at a population
pyramid, and estimate the area under the curve born since 1993
compared to those born before 1993.

https://ourworldindata.org/age-structure

-- 
James Cameron
https://quozl.linux.org.au/

From netrek at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:17:17 2021
From: netrek at gmail.com (Jesus Saves)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:17:17 -0400
Subject: [netrek-dev] SELF_8FLAGS2 aka F_self_8flags2
In-Reply-To: <20210326215836.GF3248@laptop.org>
References: <20210325234626.GA20653@laptop.org>
 <59EA4B8B-9157-4FE2-A403-E11CED6FF168@mac.com>
 <20210326043543.GE10763@laptop.org>
 <AD13032E-D57B-479F-8F6A-1D1503F44C85@mac.com>
 <20210326054812.GF10763@laptop.org>
 <CAPu6UvAVBXmWUyYiowN6=w6A30ZBHVPq8YS414pLycm3KXAhRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210326215836.GF3248@laptop.org>
Message-ID: <CAPu6UvBJ+_4CzxtRchHU+MULq3zcgjLt6ziUNYbCvBo=iyx-sQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 5:58 PM James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org> wrote:

> Not correct.  Gamers are of all ages.  Now look at a population
> pyramid, and estimate the area under the curve born since 1993
> compared to those born before 1993.
>
> https://ourworldindata.org/age-structure


Ah! Interesting.

Zach
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