Honestly, the days of unions have come and gone for the most part. Unions are almost powerless now (look at Northwest Airlines mechanics) as the gov't has come in and tripped up the process more. All in the name of "keeping America going" right? B.S.! I've watched my Dad and others get screwed any way possible over the years. Here's what's happened with my Dad's job and his "union:" 1- Lost days off (used to get about 5-6 holidays a years, plus some floating days. Now down to Maybe Christmas if their lucky) 2-Working more hours less pay (roughly a 20-30% cut in pay) 3- "Job protection" (the company laid off almost everyone hired AFTER 1986. 4) 20+ years on the job, been at the same plant with 5 different company turnovers comes to about maybe 1/2 of his salary at retirement 5)- When you strike, you get maybe a small amount of money only when you walk the picket line. If not, then no money 6)- Union dues constantly keep being raised. Why pay for "protection" when it's just cheaper and a lot easier in most cases to go find another job when the situation is so bad you have to strike? As to your comment of not having a degree, and only being 19, where companies won't talk to you... What's the difference between getting a job with the "union" or on your own? I had to switch careers due to oncoming back injuries at 26. I had no formal training, no degree (except a diploma of tech school for auto mechanics), and no formal on the job experience in the computer field. My first computer related job was working for a company on the third shift, working the computer room sorting print jobs and being a computer operator for an IBM S390 running OS390. We all take first steps into a new career, but after a while we move on. Even with the market going down, I think that you can work a better deal on your own than going into a union shop. It's all in marketing yourself. I don't mean lying about your experience, you focus and tailor your resume to what they are looking for. It took me six months, but I did finally get in. Perseverance and enthusiasm are two key traits managers and higher are looking for. The company I'm at now took me over a year and a half to get in, but I'm in and I enjoy it. Good luck in your ventures, hope you get out of the "protection" umbrella eventually and barter your way into a really good job. Shawn Munir Nassar wrote: > true, novell does not quite belong here, but the union > thing is more of your own preference not the lists > isnt it? > > but i suppose that if you have the experience and the > exposure to ask for your own salary union would be > kindof a hinderance, but for me... but for me without > a degree (hell im only 19) most companies would not > even talk to me... with a union i have at least a > fighting chance... > Unions are there to protect the employee when there is > a chance that he will get screwed, otherwise they can > be a hinderence... > > yeah Rich said that you found it hilarious that he had > a union job... > > oh yeah and we do have at least one NT/2000 server...